D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

It seems the discrepancy could resolved for you if the runes remained a map (or way out, or whatever), even on a failure, but something else happened instead, like they were magically booby-trapped or something? But I'm not sure if such a thing would occur in @pemerton's game.
As I've posted, Marvel Heroic RP uses a framework of Scene Distinctions. These are invitations to the players to interact with them, build on them, etc. If I wanted to introduce a different scene distinction - say Trapped Runes that Reveal a Way Out I could have.

Or, if the player's roll to read them had railed, then - as per the resolution rules of the game - I could have changed the Strange Runes into a Scene Complication - say, Symbol of Hopelessness. Or whatever else fits with the fiction and the general trajectory of play.

It's a fair distance, in terms of techniques, from map-and-key resolution.
 

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None of those connections should, IMO, affect the roll.
I take it that you mean by this I prefer not to play RPGs in which those sorts of connections affect the roll.

Or are you stating a general proposition, that it should never be the case, in anyone's RPGing, that those sorts of connections affect the roll?

If the latter, that seems at odds with your repeated posts accusing others of judging.

If the former, then I anticipate that, in the future, when posters are talking about those sorts of connections in their play, you won't tell them that the things they were treating as connected were, in fact, unconnected.
 

That's the difference that's being skirted around,
What is being skirted around? I've been clear about resolution processes, about low- vs high-stakes stuff, etc, throughout this thread.

But when was it decided what the runes say? I want that decision made before the roll, ideally before the runes are introduced into active play, and am uncomfortable with it occurring otherwise. It is important to me.
I know how you prefer to play. But are you saying that may game makes you uncomfortable? That's a bit weird.

It's not that what we're saying isn't true for us, it's that it doesn't matter to you.
You, and other posters, keep telling me that stuff in my RPGing is not connected/unrelated; that it involves the character causing the runes to say what they say, etc. Those things are not "true for you". They are false simpliciter: I was there, I know what the fiction was, I know what the connections and relations were.

If you want to say that you prefer different RPGing - eg that you don't like RPGing where those sorts of connections/relations matter - then why not say that?

This is a point that @Campbell has made repeatedly in this thread: that various posters, including you, keep misdescribing others' play because you analyse it on the assumption that the players had simulationist priorities - when they didn't, and you know that they didn't.

EDIT: an analogy. Perhaps there is a type of food you don't like - let's call it X. Some other people like it and eat it. It is true for you to say "I don't like X". Perhaps even "I don't know how others can enjoy X". But it would not be true to say "Those people like food even when it's horrible."

So it's fine for you. You and your players don't have a problem with something other folks do. In short: preference.

Why can't we all leave it at that?
If you (and others) are going to keep asserting false things about my play - that it involves things that are unconnected/unrelated, that it involves nonsense causation in the fiction, that it makes immersion impossible, etc - well, I may respond.

If you want to stop asserting things about my play, of course you can!
 

Because it's exhausting to have conservative D&D players show up to all sorts of places across the internet going "I hate X new thing, old D&D is better" over and over. Literally what the OP was about.

The most egregious stuff is more the "I think Session 0 guidance is horrible and dumb" tbh and similar stuff that showed up again in the first few pages and I see across the internet from people I would simply never want to game with.
Quite frankly, we are all welcome to like what we like and talk about what we want to talk about (within guidelines of decency and politeness of course). We are also welcome to respond or not as we wish. I mean, the OP called this a rant. Do you think they weren't expecting pushback?
 

I take it that you mean by this I prefer not to play RPGs in which those sorts of connections affect the roll.

Or are you stating a general proposition, that it should never be the case, in anyone's RPGing, that those sorts of connections affect the roll?

If the latter, that seems at odds with your repeated posts accusing others of judging.

If the former, then I anticipate that, in the future, when posters are talking about those sorts of connections in their play, you won't tell them that the things they were treating as connected were, in fact, unconnected.
It is the former, and yes, in the future I will try not to judge the play of others based on games with different assumptions, provided it is clear to me they are talking about different games.
 

Because it's exhausting to have conservative D&D players show up to all sorts of places across the internet going "I hate X new thing, old D&D is better" over and over. Literally what the OP was about.

The most egregious stuff is more the "I think Session 0 guidance is horrible and dumb" tbh and similar stuff that showed up again in the first few pages and I see across the internet from people I would simply never want to game with.
It's just as annoying to hear "This new stuff is so much better!" Repeatedly being told thatour games are exactly the same and ignoring how they're different.

Meanwhile we repeat over a over again that we just have different preferences. But y'all just continue arguing that we just don't get it. How many posters on your side of things ever acknowledged we just like different things unsteady of banging the drum on how awesome their game is? Because I can't remember a single one off the top of my head (admittedly it's been a long thread and I sometimes skim). Every trad player that i can think of has said its just a preference.
 

I'm not so sure. I mean, I agree that's the simplest level of play, but let's imagine I'm playing DW, and I'm fleeing from some terrible monster. I come to a dead end. I Discern Realities. I get a 10. There are kind of limited options available to the GM here! Some sort of fiction is required which I can use. It doesn't HAVE to be a secret passage, but such an outcome is fairly compelling!

Now consider beyond this maybe I developed the idea that I am a master dwarven mason, and my escape is somehow central to some conflict bearing on my character. GMs in this type of game may well be hard pressed not to go in a given direction.
I like this example. It illustrates the very many parameters that designers have to work with.

In the MHRP example, the GM makes the runes salient (as a Scene Distinction), but the power to posit what the runes say is vested in the player, if they make an appropriate action declaration; the action (and, as a byproduct, the posit) is resolved with dice.

In your DW example, the power to posit the existence of the secret passage is vested in the GM. But the GM is constrained by the outcomes of the player's declared action, and the priorities that the player has determined for their PC.

Two different ways of ensuring player-driven RPGing.

I think the DW approach creates a more "gritty" or "embodied" experience. The MHRP approach, with its Scene Distinctions, tends to elide gritty details and create a more "big picture" fiction where what matters in this fiction here-and-now is never in doubt.
 

What is being skirted around? I've been clear about resolution processes, about low- vs high-stakes stuff, etc, throughout this thread.

I know how you prefer to play. But are you saying that may game makes you uncomfortable? That's a bit weird.

You, and other posters, keep telling me that stuff in my RPGing is not connected/unrelated; that it involves the character causing the runes to say what they say, etc. Those things are not "true for you". They are false simpliciter: I was there, I know what the fiction was, I know what the connections and relations were.

If you want to say that you prefer different RPGing - eg that you don't like RPGing where those sorts of connections/relations matter - then why not say that?

This is a point that @Campbell has made repeatedly in this thread: that various posters, including you, keep misdescribing others' play because you analyse it on the assumption that the players had simulationist priorities - when they didn't, and you know that they didn't.

EDIT: an analogy. Perhaps there is a type of food you don't like - let's call it X. Some other people like it and eat it. It is true for you to say "I don't like X". Perhaps even "I don't know how others can enjoy X". But it would not be true to say "Those people like food even when it's horrible."

If you (and others) are going to keep asserting false things about my play - that it involves things that are unconnected/unrelated, that it involves nonsense causation in the fiction, that it makes immersion impossible, etc - well, I may respond.

If you want to stop asserting things about my play, of course you can!
I've said I don't personally don't like that kind of play, and don't want it in my games, many times. So have others (@AlViking comes to mind).

I'm sorry. I thought that was clear.
 

The "fundamental difference" is that there is a causal process involving the player and the fiction - the resolution of the player's declared action causes everyone to agree that the runes reveal a way out - that does not tightly correlate to any causal process within the fiction - it's not true that any action of the PC's causes the runes to reveal a way out.
Not in the fiction, but in reality, yes, it does cause that...it is a partial cause, the imposition of chance doesn't stop that.

It's worth noting that this is not the same sort of case as unadulterated "director stance", because there is another causal process involving the player and the fiction - the resolution of the player's declared action causes everyone to agree that the PC read the runes and thereby learned (i) that they reveal a way out and (ii) what that way out is - that does tightly correlate to a causal processes within the fiction - the PC's action of reading the runes causes the PC to learn (iii) that the runes reveal a way out and (iv) what that way out is.

(I made this observation upthread in post 13249 , before posting the account of the runes in post 14072.)

The tension that between resolution like that described in my first paragraph above, and "simulationist" play priorities, has been well-known for over 20 years - see, eg, here (and was also extensively discussed on these boards around 10 to 15 years ago, in the context of 4e D&D):

Consider Character, Setting, and Situation - and now consider what happens to them, over time. In Simulationist play, cause is the key, the imagined cosmos in action. . . . the relationship is supposed to turn out a certain way or set of ways, since what goes on "ought" to go on, based on internal logic instead of intrusive agenda. . . .​
Resolution mechanics, in Simulationist design, boil down to asking about the cause of what, which is to say, what performances are important during play. These vary widely, including internal states, interactions and expressions, physical motions (most games), and even decisions. Two games may be equally Simulationist even if one concerns coping with childhood trauma and the other concerns blasting villains with lightning bolts. What makes them Simulationist is the strict adherence to in-game (i.e. pre-established) cause for the outcomes that occur during play.​

In the example of the runes, the resolution mechanics do not strictly adhere to in-game, pre-established cause. Rather, there is an "intrusive agenda" - first, the GM intrudes by announcing a Scene Distinction ("Strange Runes"), and then the player intrudes by establishing a hope for his PC, which feeds into the resolution of his declared action that his PC reads the runes.

Here are two examples I was thinking of this morning, that illustrate how some of the relevant contrasts can be drawn:

Some posters, like me, will remember The Warlock of Firetop Mountain and similar Fighting Fantasy Gamebooks, which were also turned into a simple RPG in the 1980s. In the combat system for this game, a player - after successfully rolling their attack (Skill vs opponent's Skill) can "test their Luck*. If the Luck roll succeeds, more damage is dealt; if it fails, less damage is dealt.

This resolution system is not ideal from the simulationist perspective, for two reasons. First, there is a type of "rewinding of time" when, having already established that the attack succeeded to a degree, we now go back and find out whether it was especially lucky or unlucky. The luck itself, though, operates in a forward causal direction. This helps those with simulationist priorities tolerate the mechanic despite its rewind-y-ness. Second, there is the fact that the player has to choose to find out about their character's luck. So, while we can think of luck in this game as being an in-fiction phenomenon, the player choosing to activate it sits in tension with simulationist priorities - it is really an introduction of a further element of gambling into the game ("gamisms" is one jargon term for RPG play that emphasises this gambling element). To me, therefore, it's no surprise that really hardcore "simulationist" RPGs don't have this sort of mechanic in them.

The second example: as far as I know, it is (or was) fairly common for a GM in classic D&D play, after rolling a reaction roll, to make up some bit of backstory to explain the roll. Eg the PC is an Elf, the roll for the NPC is hostile, and the GM makes up a story about the NPC having a grudge against Elves.

This is not ideal from the simulationist perspective either, because the upshot is that there is a bit of the in-game past, that causally explains the in-game now (ie the angry reaction of the NPC to the Elf PC), but that was not factored into the roll. Rather, it was authored after the event. Thus, it's no surprise - again - that this isn't a thing in (say) Rolemaster (where the Influence/Interaction resolution table focuses on the character's performance, and not the backstory of the NPCs - the prior attitude of the NPCs is, rather, a factor in the difficulty of the roll, that has to be established before the dice are rolled). Nevertheless, there are some features of this example which make it tolerable in some otherwise broadly simulationist play: (i) it doesn't really involve an intrusion of some other priority (the GM is just trying to make sure all the fiction coheres), and (ii) it is done by the GM, not the player, and so doesn't depart from a broader principle that the GM controls the backstory by a combination of literal pre-authorship and in-play heuristics that aspire to emulate pre-authorship.

The runes example can be seen as combining features of both these two examples: player proactivity (like testing your Luck in Fighting Fantasy), and using a roll that reflects an action occurring in the in-game now to help establish something about the in-game past (like the reaction roll example), but centring the player rather than the GM.
Now, the rest of your post seems in line with what we're saying about the distinction between past and future and the ability of the player to author fiction. I basically agree with all of it. So, is there any real disagreement left, or is it just semantics? If it is just semantics I'm happy to leave it there.
 
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I don't have Apocalypse World to check directly myself
I know what AW says. From p 109 (of the original rulebook):

Apocalypse World divvies the conversation up in a strict and pretty traditional way. The players’ job is to say what their characters say and undertake to do, first and exclusively; to say what their characters think, feel and remember, also exclusively; and to answer your questions about their characters’ lives and surroundings. Your job as MC is to say everything else: everything about the world, and what everyone in the whole damned world says and does except the players’ characters.​

It's not a game in which the MC embodies the setting. The players have the job of saying what their characters remember, and of answering the MC's questions about their characters' lives and surrounding.

There is no assumption that the setting travels in one direction, from GM to players. The departure from the "GM embodies the setting approach" which is already evident in what I quoted is only reinforced by the rules for the first session, and the GM principle "Ask provocative questions and build on the answers". From p 113, elaborating that principle:

Start simple: “What’s your living space like?” “Who’s known each other longest?” But as play proceeds, ask for immediate and intimate details of the characters’ experiences. . . .

Once you have the player’s answer, build on it. I mean three things by that: (1) barf apocalyptica upon it, by adding details and imagery of your own; (2) refer to it later in play, bringing it back into currency; and (3) use it to inform your own developing apocalyptic aesthetic, incorporating it - and more importantly, its implications - into your own vision.

It’s especially important to ask, the first time each character opens her brain to the world’s psychic maelstrom, what that’s
like for her. Maybe it’s the same for everybody, maybe it’s different. And after the first time, always, always add details of your own.​

There is no GMing advice similar to this found in any "trad" RPG that I'm aware of.
 

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