D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[TwoSix]

How do you know?

How do you know?

I'm extrapolating the example into how I would generally approach based on my own experiences.

Yes, and the argument is that this mechanical resolution step is designed so that just playing your character become a bit more tricky than in certain other mecanical resolution schemes. That both in terms of required player input, and related incentive structures.

I'm sure some people find it tricky. I personally don't, so I'm really just arguing against the idea that it MUST be more difficult.

I grant it appear possible to play it just playing your character. I am not sure if I would be able to aquire that skill though, even if I tried. (And it is not obvious to me why I would like to try. The game seem more fun to me if I am "allowed" to embrace the meta).

It would depend on the game, for me. Sometimes I like to play more "over-the-shoulder" (third person guiding perspective), sometimes I like to be more zoomed in.

 

[pemerton]

Those are perfectly logical conclusions. (And I also have first hand experience.)

<snip>

You very obviously don't know. It might be that you have some "unwritten rules," social contract, etc in place which fights these incentives though. Probably worth exploring, and I have asked about things related to it couple of times, but you've ignored it.

How much first hand experience do you have of MHRP? Burning Wheel? Torchbearer 2e?

As I said, I am confident in my knowledge of the incentive structures of those games. They do not work like you say. Perhaps there are elements of those games you're ignorant of? I don't know.

 

[Maxperson]

You don't need to give a textual limitation when you're comfortable with the fact that the player is going to be a partner in helping to create the correct fiction.

That's a railroad. "You can create the fiction, so long as you create the correct fiction that I the DM have set forth." The limitation as @pemerton put forth wasn't a limitation. D&D tropes and cunning INCLUDING the 1e thief doesn't set a limitation on the fiction, because that still applies generally to just about everything.

We're not talking about a @Lanefan game where trying to push the rules to the edge to give your character an advantage is considered correct play.

Nor am I doing that. I'm just pointing out that with the information given, Cunning Expert would apply to knowing all kinds of stuff.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

How much first hand experience do you have of MHRP? Burning Wheel? Torchbearer 2e?

None. But Blades has somewhat similar ones, albeit to lesser degree.

As I said, I am confident in my knowledge of the incentive structures of those games. They do not work like you say. Perhaps there are elements of those games you're ignorant of? I don't know.

People well-versed in game design can read rules and see the incentives. I certainly can. It would be more convincing if instead of going nuh-huh, you explained why the game does not incentivise things I say it does. Like I am perfectly willing to accept that I can be wrong about things, or missed some important element. But you gotta do better than "trust me, bro."

 

[pemerton]

How do you know?

How do you know?

@TwoSix knows these things because I posted them on these threads, and I am able to provide accurate and reliable accounts of my own play experiences.

Yes, and the argument is that this mechanical resolution step is designed so that just playing your character become a bit more tricky than in certain other mecanical resolution schemes. That both in terms of required player input, and related incentive structures.

I don't know what you mean by "tricky". It's clear that a player in MHRP, in declaring an action, has to state what effect they are attempting to achieve.

This stuff about "incentive structures" is a new red herring: people conjecturing about the incentive structures for a RPG they've never played or read!

 

[TwoSix]

That's a railroad. "You can create the fiction, so long as you create the correct fiction that I the DM have set forth." The limitation as @pemerton put forth wasn't a limitation. D&D tropes and cunning INCLUDING the 1e thief doesn't set a limitation on the fiction, because that still applies generally to just about everything.

It's totally not a railroad. It's you as a player understanding your role in the game.

Nor am I doing that. I'm just pointing out that with the information given, Cunning Expert would apply to knowing all kinds of stuff.

Could apply. But the GM and player both understand that's not the intent, which is all that's actually important in play.

 

[pemerton]

None. But Blades has somewhat similar ones, albeit to lesser degree.

I don't think BitD has much in common with any of the three RPGs I mentioned. It uses a different way of establishing opposition; a different resolution system; a different PC advancement system. What do you think is similar?

People well-versed in game design can read rules and see the incentives. I certainly can.

Have you read the rules for Burning Wheel, Torchbearer 2e or Marvel Heroic RP?

Have you played them, to see how they actually work?

 

[pemerton]

Right. This is what I've asked @pemerton couple of times. In his game are that players supposed to try to ignore the meta knowledge when making decisions for their or embrace it?

What meta knowledge?

 

[The Firebird]

I mean, if I said that I find your game silly because in your game fighters kill Orcs by rolling polyhedral dice, I'm guessing you'd object.

I've heard that objection a lot in my life. I've also heard people say the same thing about football (they call it 'handegg'), soccer, basketball, sports in general ('sportsball'). Ian Malcolm calls sports "grown men swatting little balls while the rest of the world pays to applaud". From this thread we can add 'railroading' and 'GM-driven play' and perhaps 'storygame' and a number of other such terms.

So no, I wouldn't really object. People have their preferences. The majority of people don't like RPGs at all. All good with me.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I don't think BitD has much in common with any of the three RPGs I mentioned. It uses a different way of establishing opposition; a different resolution system; a different PC advancement system. What do you think is similar?

That actions can have acausal effects/consequences.

Have you read the rules for Burning Wheel, Torchbearer 2e or Marvel Heroic RP?

Have you played them, to see how they actually work?

I have not read TB, I have read the two others. I have not played them.

But it seems you do not have an actual counter argument.