D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Faolyn]

Noooope. Don't need to "heavily, heavily stack the odds".

It's literally just like a hundred, hundred and fifty peasants with slings. That's all you need. "Perfectly positioned"? Not at all. Literally just don't cluster up and don't stand in a straight line.

A semicircular arc is good enough, or a couple arcs, or just scattered around in, say, a 60x60 square.

Dragons should not ever assault anything bigger than a..."hamlet" I think was the official term from the Gygaxian era? They'll straight-up die as long as the villagers are even remotely trying to defend themselves.

And if you think I'm wrong, prove it. Prove the dragon almost always survives. The math is there. You should be able to easily show that this isn't a problem. Presume 150 peasants distributed loosely across a field. Shouldn't be hard at all to show that an adult red dragon can essentially always survive that, as you're claiming.

I think @EzekialRaiden blocked me (I can still see his posts, though, so I dunno; maybe he's just ignoring me), so he likely won't see this. If @AlViking or someone else wants to use this math, y'all can go ahead.

You have to wait for the peasant to roll a nat 20, right? And no matter the edition, a sling does about 1d4 + a stat mod damage, which peasants rarely have. (If this is 5e, by the way, the dragon can easily keep out of regular range, meaning that the peasants would have disad on the roll, meaning that they'd have to roll a nat 20 on both dice.)

Now, in the time it takes for you to get that many peasants rolling nat 20s, well, I will once again let the esteemed Mr. Burlew do the talking:

Dragons have breath weapons that generally have longer range than slings do. At most, they'll take a tiny bit of damage before they destroy all those peasants. Even if they space themselves out wide enough so that more than one or a couple gets hit by the breath at once (which begs the question of how they know how big that space is). Even back in 1e, when breath weapons were pretty weak, one breath would take out a huge chunk of those peasants in a single use, especially since even black dragons are smart enough to position themselves effectively. And many dragons have magic and minions (of any number of hp), and most dragons are at least as smart as peasants are.

Your math only works if the dragon sits there and does nothing. And actually, it falls apart even then, if the dragon is old enough to have dragonfear. AD&D peasants would immediately flee, no save, due to their low Hit Dice, and in later editions many or even most of the peasants would fail their save.

Here's the note from the 1e MM: At adult age and older they radiate a powerful aura which causes a fear reaction, when a dragon flies overhead or charges, as follows: All creatures under 1 hit die, as well as non-carnivorous creatures of any sort which are not trained for warfare [[note: such as peasants]] or basically not fearless or aggressive will flee in panic. Such rout will be made at fastest speed possible, and it will continue for 4-24 turns. Creatures with fewer than 3 hit dice must save versus magic or be paralyzed with fear (50%)or panic as above (50%). Emphasis mine.

in 2e and later, the dragon doesn't have to be charging or flying overhead; they cause fear "just at the mere sight of them." Although they only run for 4d6 minute-long rounds in 2e, not 10-minute turns as in 1e.

So let's take the young black dragon. In 1e, their breath weapon would do anywhere from 18-24 damage in a 60-foot-long, 5(?)-foot wide line. In 2e, they do 8d4+4 damage in the same line. In 3e, that drops to a simple 8d4 damage, but same 60 feet. I ain't looking up 4e, so in 5e, that's either 11d8 damage or 14d6 in a 30-foot line, depending on if you use 5.14 or 5.24. But in 5e, they aren't limited to 3 uses per day, and they will definitely be able to recharge their breaths in the time it takes those peasants to roll all those nat 20s. In every single edition, even with successful saves for half damage, the peasants caught in the breaths will die.

And again, this assumes that the young/juvenile dragon is just sitting there doing nothing but attacking. Not using the terrain (swamp) or its swim speed to its advantage. Not using magic or the innate ability it has in many editions to cast darkness, not dividing its physical attacks among multiple peasants, not using the fact its a big scary monster such that even without a fear aura or Intimidation skill (in 5e; 3e dragons had 'it) it can herd peasants into dangerous areas. And that's a young/juvenile dragon. An older one will simply have more abilities and be deadlier.

So yeah. If the dragon isn't played by a sleeping GM, even adhering strictly to RAW most of those 150 peasants are going to be lunch and the rest of the peasants will have fled due to dragonfear, not simply common sense, long before they could nickel-and-dime the dragon to death.

 

[gban007]

I think @EzekialRaiden blocked me (I can still see his posts, though, so I dunno; maybe he's just ignoring me), so he likely won't see this. If @AlViking or someone else wants to use this math, y'all can go ahead.

You have to wait for the peasant to roll a nat 20, right? And no matter the edition, a sling does about 1d4 + a stat mod damage, which peasants rarely have. (If this is 5e, by the way, the dragon can easily keep out of regular range, meaning that the peasants would have disad on the roll, meaning that they'd have to roll a nat 20 on both dice.)

Now, in the time it takes for you to get that many peasants rolling nat 20s, well, I will once again let the esteemed Mr. Burlew do the talking:

View attachment 414657

Dragons have breath weapons that generally have longer range than slings do. At most, they'll take a tiny bit of damage before they destroy all those peasants. Even if they space themselves out wide enough so that more than one or a couple gets hit by the breath at once (which begs the question of how they know how big that space is). Even back in 1e, when breath weapons were pretty weak, one breath would take out a huge chunk of those peasants in a single use, especially since even black dragons are smart enough to position themselves effectively. And many dragons have magic and minions (of any number of hp), and most dragons are at least as smart as peasants are.

Your math only works if the dragon sits there and does nothing. And actually, it falls apart even then, if the dragon is old enough to have dragonfear. AD&D peasants would immediately flee, no save, due to their low Hit Dice, and in later editions many or even most of the peasants would fail their save.

Here's the note from the 1e MM: At adult age and older they radiate a powerful aura which causes a fear reaction, when a dragon flies overhead or charges, as follows: All creatures under 1 hit die, as well as non-carnivorous creatures of any sort which are not trained for warfare [[note: such as peasants]] or basically not fearless or aggressive will flee in panic. Such rout will be made at fastest speed possible, and it will continue for 4-24 turns. Creatures with fewer than 3 hit dice must save versus magic or be paralyzed with fear (50%)or panic as above (50%). Emphasis mine.

in 2e and later, the dragon doesn't have to be charging or flying overhead; they cause fear "just at the mere sight of them." Although they only run for 4d6 minute-long rounds in 2e, not 10-minute turns as in 1e.

So let's take the young black dragon. In 1e, their breath weapon would do anywhere from 18-24 damage in a 60-foot-long, 5(?)-foot wide line. In 2e, they do 8d4+4 damage in the same line. In 3e, that drops to a simple 8d4 damage, but same 60 feet. I ain't looking up 4e, so in 5e, that's either 11d8 damage or 14d6 in a 30-foot line, depending on if you use 5.14 or 5.24. But in 5e, they aren't limited to 3 uses per day, and they will definitely be able to recharge their breaths in the time it takes those peasants to roll all those nat 20s. In every single edition, even with successful saves for half damage, the peasants caught in the breaths will die.

And again, this assumes that the young/juvenile dragon is just sitting there doing nothing but attacking. Not using the terrain (swamp) or its swim speed to its advantage. Not using magic or the innate ability it has in many editions to cast darkness, not dividing its physical attacks among multiple peasants, not using the fact its a big scary monster such that even without a fear aura or Intimidation skill (in 5e; 3e dragons had 'it) it can herd peasants into dangerous areas. And that's a young/juvenile dragon. An older one will simply have more abilities and be deadlier.

So yeah. If the dragon isn't played by a sleeping GM, even adhering strictly to RAW most of those 150 peasants are going to be lunch and the rest of the peasants will have fled due to dragonfear, not simply common sense, long before they could nickel-and-dime the dragon to death.

I think Ezekial is threadbanned so can't respond.
Regarding your example, in dnd 2024 most dragons dont have dragonfear now.

 

[Maxperson]

The basic commoner statblock has a club. Not a dagger, not a light crossbow, not a sling.

Meaningless. A stat block is not RAW. It's a stat block. RAW is the part at the beginning of the MM that lets them have any proficiency I want, and the PHB which explicitly says commoners use simple weapons.

Nor does it say they are proficient with anything else.

Your tunnel vision is pretty amazing given that I've shown you the rule in the PHB multiple times now. Rules don't exist in a vacuum. They are in all the books, which means the PHB rules apply. The MM doesn't need to say they are proficient with other weapons, because the PHB says it for them.

Ok then oathbows and arrows of dragon slaying?

Maybe. If the oathbow is a short bow or light crossbow, then yes the farmer would be proficient because it's a simple weapon. Arrows don't require proficiency, so I'm not sure why you are bringing it up.

You don't seem to understand this basic concept. Using something ~= being proficient with something.

And you don't seem to understand the basic concept of RAW. The rules as WRITTEN, say they have proficiency.

You are taking this quote from the 2014 PHB out of context. It says most people, and it is talking about PCs. The reason it says "most" in the 2014 rules and Wizards, Sorcerers and Druids did not get proficiency in Simple Weapons, while every other class did. Think about that for a minute - you are saying a completely untrained commoner should be able to use simple weapons more effectively than a 20th level Wizard who is a grizzled veteran of many battles and who can probably slay a Dragon single handedly if pressed!

I'm not taking it out of context, because the PHB is not for PCs. It's for PCs, NPCs and monsters. Further, I see 5 weapon proficiencies for wizards. Let's take a look at which ones they are. Oh, all of them are simple weapons.

And if we are going to use 2014 rules, I think it is important to use what the 2014 MM actually says about this:

Assume that a creature is proficient with its armor, weapons, and tools. If you swap them out, you decide whether the creature is proficient with its new equipment.

See the Players Handbook for rules on using armor or weapons without proficiency."

"You decide", is quite different than they are proficient.

Again with the tunnel vision. There are other rules than just that and those are also in play.

No that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is they should not get their proficiency bonus when they use them.

You have provided no reason other than a stat block that is not a rule of any sort, and which only describes on of the many configurations of commoners. Do you have a good reason for why a commoner should not be able to use commoner weapons(per the PHB)?

Nope. He is trained to use a net and a spear.

Do you know what a gladiator is? I know the game doesn't describe it, so you may not. Gladiators get trained in many, MANY different weapons for their matches.

There is no way someone who is not trained extensively should be able to use either a dagger or a crossbow effectively in combat.

Club yes. Quarterstaff - it depends on exactly what you mean by that. Oriental Bo stick - no, 16th century English Quarterstaff - no, Galdalfs walking stick - sure.

It's a lot easier to use a crossbow in combat than a club.

If we want to bring logic into this discussion, you can break simple weapons into three groups:

Easy to use without training: Club, Greatclub, Small hammer, Sickle, Shortbow, Spear, Dart, Hand Axe (when not throwing it)

Hard to use in combat without extensive training: Light Crossbow, Javelin, Dagger, Hand axe (when throwing), Sling

Weapons which it is not clear exactly what they refer to and could be hard or easy depending: Mace, Quarterstaff

Again you ignore both reality and sense. Crossbows are famous for their ease of use by commoners. They are the easiest thing in those groups.

"The medieval crossbow, or “arbalist” as it was called during the Middle Ages, was resurrected in the form of a hand-held weapon in the 10th century, and its use spread rapidly across Europe. From 1200 to 1480 it evolved through several stages to become a powerful and deadly weapon. Its popularity had much to do with the ability of its missile, called a bolt, to penetrate mail body armor at close range. As such, the crossbow became a class leveler—a man of even modest means could afford one, it was very easy to master, and unlike the knight who had to maintain armor, horse, and retainers at enormous expense, the owner of a crossbow needed only bring bow strings and bolts to the field of combat"

It makes no sense to give commoners "proficiency" in anything more than the most basic weapons they would use for shoveling hay, hunting etc.

Have you played D&D? The world is a very dangerous place. Farmers are going to want to know how to use weapons for when goblins, orcs, wargs or whatever else comes walking out of the woods. And if it's an ogre, they probably want to hit it at range, and crossbows are very easy to get and use.

You also state that it is "stupid" that commoners can kill a Dragon and then in defending that argument you purposely interpret the rules and CHOOSE to give them benefits that make this easier.

The problem isn't with the commoners and their weapons. The problem is with the dragon/monster rules(or lack of them).

IF we are using 2014 rules it is very clear that you choose whether to make your peasants proficient with crossbows. If you think they should not be able to slay a Dragon, making the choice to give them proficiency does not make any sense.

Nah. Being proficient in one of the easiest to learn weapons makes perfect sense. Dragons just need DR or immunity to normal weapons to keep the farmers from killing them.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think Ezekial is threadbanned so can't respond.
Regarding your example, in dnd 2024 most dragons dont have dragonfear now.

One more reason not to play 5.5, and not to assume its use when discussing a thread in the D&D General forum.

 

[Lanefan]

Even back in 1e, when breath weapons were pretty weak,

Relative to people's hit point totals in 1e, breath weapons were nasty enough unless the dragon was young.

And "breath weapon" is by far the hardest save category for all classes, meaning there's a good chance that even if you survive some of your gear is going up.

Here's the note from the 1e MM: At adult age and older they radiate a powerful aura which causes a fear reaction, when a dragon flies overhead or charges, as follows: All creatures under 1 hit die, as well as non-carnivorous creatures of any sort which are not trained for warfare [[note: such as peasants]] or basically not fearless or aggressive will flee in panic. Such rout will be made at fastest speed possible, and it will continue for 4-24 turns. Creatures with fewer than 3 hit dice must save versus magic or be paralyzed with fear (50%)or panic as above (50%). Emphasis mine.

in 2e and later, the dragon doesn't have to be charging or flying overhead; they cause fear "just at the mere sight of them." Although they only run for 4d6 minute-long rounds in 2e, not 10-minute turns as in 1e.

I suspect the "4-24 turns" in the 1e MM may have been an error right from day one and was always supposed to be rounds; it wouldn't be the only place EGG used turns when he in fact meant rounds.

So let's take the young black dragon. In 1e, their breath weapon would do anywhere from 18-24 damage

Not sure where you're getting this from. In 1e a dragon's breath damage was a fixed number equal to its hit point total (yeah, dumb rule, but that's how it worked). Further, their hit point total was locked in by the dragon's age, so a young dragon would always be 3 HD and would be locked in at 3 hit points per die, or a mighty 9 hit points total; and that's what its breath would do (save for half). A 7 hit-die very old dragon would have 7 h.p. per die, so 49 total, and that's what its breath would do (again, save for half).

Personally, I have no idea what the rationale behind any of this was (if indeed there was any!) and long ago - as in, back in the 1980s - I threw out both the fixed points per die idea and the concept of their breath damage being locked to their hit points. I also made them a lot tougher across the board, though not perhaps to the extent that 3e did, such that a high-end dragon could be a serious threat to even the most powerful of parties.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I think @EzekialRaiden blocked me (I can still see his posts, though, so I dunno; maybe he's just ignoring me)

Mod Note:

Just for the sake of keeping the peace, we prefer people not mentioning who may or may not be blocking someone.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Also, since I’m here…

As I recall, the average dragon is relatively smart. An intelligent being going into combat will take steps to tip the odds moreso in its favor unless it has a case of terminal hubris.

Without getting into sling (or possibly even arrow/bolt) range, a dragon of even average size could do a lot of damage to massed opponents by flying at top speed and simply dropping a couple of clawsfull of boulders on their position. As an opening tactic, it has a lot going for it.

Trained soldiers might be able to hold their positions or regroup, but peasants? Not likely.

(I know, it begs the question of the airspeed velocity of a laden dragon, which will vary by type, but…)