D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[clearstream]

The only way that destroyed precludes unconcious is if targets cannot be killed. Because anything that can be killed can be knocked unconcious instead of killed, as per the rules and as per the rules clarification in the later RC. But, you repeatedly claimed that because minions cannot be knocked unconcious, only destroyed. IOW, they cannot be killed. Thus the immortal minion rule where they can never actually die, only be destroyed.

Taking "destroyed" and "killed" to be game states allows for something to be unconscious just so long as it hasn't yet shifted to that state. There is no obstacle to a rule like that for vampires that shifts things directly to destroyed. And such a rule does not prevent reaching unconscious by some other route.

 

[Maxperson]

There is no rule needing reiterating regarding 1 hp. Silence on that score would have covered it.

"Destroyed" is used 41 times in the core MM. An holistic reading will give it the same meaning on the 40th and 41st appearance as it had on the other thirty-nine.

A holistic reading requires destroyed to include being knocked out, since tons of elementals, undead, etc. are destroyed and can be knocked out. To get some allowed to be knocked out like zombies and skeletons, yet others not be able to be knocked out like minions, isn't holistic. It separates out a few individuals to be treated differently. In this case minions.

 

[Micah Sweet]

A holistic reading requires destroyed to include being knocked out, since tons of elementals, undead, etc. are destroyed and can be knocked out. To get some allowed to be knocked out like zombies and skeletons, yet others not be able to be knocked out like minions, isn't holistic. It separates out a few individuals to be treated differently. In this case minions.

Skeletons and zombies are types of creatures in the setting. Minions are a type of creature in the game. Apples and oranges.

 

[Faolyn]

No, that's not sim, IMO it's naked gamism, designed to create a specific sort of challenge, plus a dash of narrative mechanics (to encourage the "characters cuts through scads of enemies like butter, per the developers) story element. There's nothing sim about it, at least in terms of process sim. You can tell by your reference to the relative "importance" of opponents.

See, you read that as gamist, I read as simulationist. The importance of opponents simulates that to me. It just goes to show how unclear and useless these designations are.

 

[Faolyn]

I agree. RAW could mean something different from destroyed simply by using a word like "defeated".

Yet the 4e RAW uses "destroyed". Folk can always house rule that or interpret it to mean something else.

Yeah, but who cares? Reinterpret it. It doesn't change the way you play it if you decide that defeated only means killed if the players say they intend to kill.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Skeletons and zombies are types of creatures in the setting. Minions are a type of creature in the game. Apples and oranges.

I tend to think of minions as the 3.5e templates

 

[Faolyn]

By your interpretation, it is impossible for minions to be killed. Because if they can be killed, then they can be incapacitated. But, by your definition, they cannot be incapacitated, therefore they cannot be killed, only destroyed.

And apparently, this was all resolved a short time later with the Rules Companion which supersedes the original books. So, it looks like your interpretation was wrong all the way along.

Your reading of his post doesn't make any sense. Clearstream doesn't seem to be saying that minions were immune to any other effects or conditions.

 

[Lanefan]

Oh, that was just 3.5 RAW. Here's the spell:

And here's the general rules on illumination:

Shadowy illumination is less dark than darkness.

Not for the first time, I wish this site had a facepalm emoji as a 'like' option.

 

[Lanefan]

There's no setting logic needed. Hit points represent how long it takes for a creature to be out of play. A minion is out of play really quickly.

My main objection to minions is that in many cases they're out of play too quickly, e.g. when the minion is a big creature (a Giant, a Dragon, etc.) that would otherwise have lots of hit points, or when the minion is fighting something other than the high-powered PCs and yet still goes down on one hit.

An easy-to-imagine example of the latter is if someone charms or dominiates one minion (maybe without even realizing it's just a minion!) and tells it to fight another.

 

[Cadence]

Oh, that was just 3.5 RAW. Here's the spell:

And here's the general rules on illumination:

Shadowy illumination is less dark than darkness.

This actually came up in a fantasy book I'm reading with someone who walks in shadows. Being in a mine with no light sources is the worst place in the world for them since there are no shadows (something hard to avoid even on a bright sunny day) and totally different than a place where there is even a hint of light.