D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Zardnaar]

Perhaps more to the point, never travelled any distance upward (e.g. flew in a jet at 35000 feet) where the curvature of the horizon is more noticeable.

It's also far harder on land to perceive the effect that you can at sea where a distant ship slowly disappears below the horizon as it moves away from you; because while the sea is known to be level, on land it's far too easy for the mind to assume the distant object is simply going down the other side of a low hill.

I climbed a 700 Metre mountain. You can see the curve over the ocean.

 

[comrade raoul]

That’s not according to the Oxford dictionary definition.

“a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.”

Don't bring a dictionary to a logic fight. Nothing in the OED definition of "opinion" conflicts with anything Hussar said at all.

If Xs are not necessarily Y, the only thing that follows is that if something's an X, it's possible that it could also be Y. It obviously doesn't follow either that no Xs are Y (mammals are not necessarily male, but some mammals are male) or that Xs should be Y (library patrons don't necessarily return their books on time, but they should). (It doesn't even follow that any Xs are not Y: it so happens that every thing I'm wearing now is blue, but this isn't a necessary truth.) In fact, if opinions were necessarily based on fact or knowledge, there would be much less point to saying that they should be so in the first place: why bother holding something to a standard it can't possibly fail to meet?

Problem: "trying to prove something" and "opinions" don't go together.

Opinions are our positions or judgements we have formed that are NOT based on facts or knowledge. By definition, opinions will always fall short of being objectively provable. So, no, actual evidence for opinions is not required.

Really? When you, in your capacity as a mod, tell someone that their behavior here has crossed a line, I'd say that you're expressing your opinion. But I'd also say that you generally have excellent reasons for that opinion, and that you wouldn't be nearly so good a mod if you didn't.

 

[Mistwell]

Can’t really argue with you there @Reynard. People absolutely should like what they like.

But you don’t have to endlessly piddle in the pool about it.

This is really where I am at. I am so, so tired of the D&D community being about complaining constantly about things they dislike, so much more than talking about the things they like.

I so rarely even see people talking about the games they're actually playing, I wonder if people ARE actually playing games all that often?

It's a game. You play a game for enjoyment. Why are so many focused on things that make them miserable? And worse, why do so many seem intent on making sure other people are as miserable as they are about games they dislike?

 

[Micah Sweet]

This is really where I am at. I am so, so tired of the D&D community being about complaining constantly about things they dislike, so much more than talking about the things they like.

I so rarely even see people talking about the games they're actually playing, I wonder if people ARE actually playing games all that often?

It's a game. You play a game for enjoyment. Why are so many focused on things that make them miserable? And worse, why do so many seem intent on making sure other people are as miserable as they are about games they dislike?

I played Shadowdark for the first time last weekend, and am playing in a Dragonlance 5e game later today. I'm also running a 5.0 game with my family using parts of the 3e World's Largest Dungeon, and also a Level Up game with homebrew elements for my friends. On top of all that, I have Kickstarters waiting for Level Up, ACKS II, Shadowdark, and Ashes Without Number, and just picked up the new Spider-man book for the Marvel Multiverse game.

I like a lot of games.

 

[Mistwell]

I played Shadowdark for the first time last weekend, and am playing in a Dragonlance 5e game later today. I'm also running a 5.0 game with my family using parts of the 3e World's Largest Dungeon, and also a Level Up game with homebrew elements for my friends. On top of all that, I have Kickstarters waiting for Level Up, ACKS II, Shadowdark, and Ashes Without Number, and just picked up the new Spider-man book for the Marvel Multiverse game.

I like a lot of games.

I would love to hear play reports about both Shadowdark and ACK! Looking forward to it.

 

[Xenolith234]

Don't bring a dictionary to a logic fight. Nothing in the OED definition of "opinion" conflicts with anything Hussar said at all.

If Xs are not necessarily Y, the only thing that follows is that if something's an X, it's possible that it could also be Y. It obviously doesn't follow either that no Xs are Y (mammals are not necessarily male, but some mammals are male) or that Xs should be Y (library patrons don't necessarily return their books on time, but they should). (It doesn't even follow that any Xs are not Y: it so happens that every thing I'm wearing now is blue, but this isn't a necessary truth.) In fact, if opinions were necessarily based on fact or knowledge, there would be much less point to saying that they should be so in the first place: why bother holding something to a standard it can't possibly fail to meet?


Really? When you, in your capacity as a mod, tell someone that their behavior here has crossed a line, I'd say that you're expressing your opinion. But I'd also say that you generally have excellent reasons for that opinion, and that you wouldn't be nearly so good a mod if you didn't.

If someone aggressively states an opinion that all opinions must be based in fact…then yeah, it’s gonna invite some challenge to the validity of that argument, using facts. Someone can have an opinion of their favorite restaurant - it has nothing to do with facts, other than perhaps validating that their favorite pizza restaurant actually makes pizza and not something like Thai food.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I would love to hear play reports about both Shadowdark and ACK! Looking forward to it.

I'll let you know.

 

[comrade raoul]

If someone aggressively states an opinion that all opinions must be based in fact

Fair! I won't try to speak for Hussar, but even I don't think that! (I might quibble with the semantics a bit, but that would be really too pedantic!) As long as you agree that some opinions can--and at least in some contexts should--be based on facts and/or reasons, we're good.

Someone can have an opinion of their favorite restaurant - it has nothing to do with facts, other than perhaps validating that their favorite pizza restaurant actually makes pizza and not something like Thai food.

This makes me wonder if any of your friends are foodies (or just from New York/New Jersey)! Believe me, if I told my partner--who's both of those things--that Pizza Hut is the best pizza restaurant in NYC, I'd better have some damn good reasons to back that up. (I agree about something's being your favorite, though, but that's because I think it's kind of a special case--unlike our beliefs about a thing's value or quality, our personal attachments tend to be based on quirky, idiosyncratic reasons we don't typically expect others to appreciate and/or share.)

 

[kmg4]

Note: I DO NOT MEAN POLITICAL CONSERVATISM. This is not a thread about politics.

I mean "conservatism" as in resistance to change. You see it all the time -- people complaining about the new art or aesthetics, literally saying things like "if they used the old art I would be in." It is so mind boggling to me.

D&D is a living game. OF COURSE the new books etc are going to adapt to the new market. If you literally won't play a newer version because tieflings or whatever, then it isn't for you. Don't demand it regress to the era you discovered D&D because that is what makes you feel good; play the version you discovered.

I don't liek every artistic or design choice either, but it isn't up to me to demand D&D coddle my unchanging preferences. If I want to re-experience BECMI (the edition I grew up with) I can just play that. And so can you.

/rant

I can explain exactly why this is.

As a person, I love accelerating change, technological disruptions that transform entire industries, etc.

But in D&D, while I don't think anyone has a problem with Tieflings, etc., certain fundamental changes in mechanics mess up what an oldie took the time to memorize (the lower the AC number, the stronger, 'Hit Dice', Fireball and Lightning bolt as 3rd level Mage spells, etc.).

Every version through the 80s and 90s did not change this (BECMI fans could still play the Baldur's Gate series without any undoing of learning). But when the entire paradigm is different, AND no one makes new video games catering to the 1980-2002 era, then there is less new content to enjoy. Yes, one can play old P&P with people of similar preference (i.e. age), but new video games are never made for the BECMI/1st Ed/2nd Ed crowd and all the details they have memorized.

 

[Xenolith234]

Fair! I won't try to speak for Hussar, but even I don't think that! (I might quibble with the semantics a bit, but that would be really too pedantic!) As long as you agree that some opinions can--and at least in some contexts should--be based on facts and/or reasons, we're good.


This makes me wonder if any of your friends are foodies (or just from New York/New Jersey)! Believe me, if I told my partner--who's both of those things--that Pizza Hut is the best pizza restaurant in NYC, I'd better have some damn good reasons to back that up. (I agree about something's being your favorite, though, but that's because I think it's kind of a special case--unlike our beliefs about a thing's value or quality, our personal attachments tend to be based on quirky, idiosyncratic reasons we don't typically expect others to appreciate and/or share.)

I’m a foodie, but I also have some really crappy nostalgic food tastes from my childhood that are definitely not grounded in objective fact. Casa Ole was great Mexican food…unless you ask anyone who knows actual good Mexican food