5E Rants Regarding the Corporate Castration of our Beloved Hobby

MechaPilot

Explorer
Or maybe their market research has shown that PDFs aren't heavily desired. They do have digital offerings available for sale of all the books, with more added value than a PDF.
Which is a nice hypothetical. Fact is we really don't have access to their pdf sales research. All I can do is draw on my own experiences, both with people I know in real life and with what I've read on the forums. A lot of people seem to want pdfs, for the right price. A lot of people also seem to want both pdfs and physical copies, and some of the people who've said they want this have said they'd want the pdfs in addition to more than one physical copy of the books.
 

Parmandur

Legend
Which is a nice hypothetical. Fact is we really don't have access to their pdf sales research. All I can do is draw on my own experiences, both with people I know in real life and with what I've read on the forums. A lot of people seem to want pdfs, for the right price. A lot of people also seem to want both pdfs and physical copies, and some of the people who've said they want this have said they'd want the pdfs in addition to more than one physical copy of the books.
Sure, we don't have access to their market research, but we can be fairly certain that it exists and that they are acting on this data, whereas anecdotes together do not string into data.
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
Sure, we don't have access to their market research, but we can be fairly certain that it exists and that they are acting on this data, whereas anecdotes together do not string into data.
Look, I'm not a statistician (though I am an accountant), but even I know anecdotes aren't data. However, it is the closest thing to data that's available for me to draw conclusions from.

As for knowing that the research exists, I don't reasonably think we can say that. WotC, while very good about research for the most part, has been very paranoid about piracy and pdf offerings. It's not unreasonable to think it may have affected either their willingness to perform pdf sales research, or the depths of that research compared to their other studies.
 

Elfcrusher

Adventurer
It's not unreasonable to think it may have affected either their willingness to perform pdf sales research, or the depths of that research compared to their other studies.
On the contrary, I do think it's unreasonable to think their justifiable concerns about piracy would mean that they wouldn't even be willing to perform the research. Politicians avoid gathering data that may contradict their assumptions, but businesspeople do not.

Then again, you just called them "paranoid", so maybe you also think they are "willfully ignorant" or whatever.

("What? Digital millennials sharing PDFs with each other? Yeah, that's just freaking paranoid.")

What's ironic is that you are basically accusing them of ignoring any information that might contradict the foregone conclusions you ascribe to them, and yet you seem (based on your posts) to have already decided they are just flat out wrong for not giving you the products that you want, and are ignoring any evidence/arguments that suggest maybe this is the right decision for them (if not for you).
 
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Parmandur

Legend
Look, I'm not a statistician (though I am an accountant), but even I know anecdotes aren't data. However, it is the closest thing to data that's available for me to draw conclusions from.

As for knowing that the research exists, I don't reasonably think we can say that. WotC, while very good about research for the most part, has been very paranoid about piracy and pdf offerings. It's not unreasonable to think it may have affected either their willingness to perform pdf sales research, or the depths of that research compared to their other studies.
But they have made digital offerings of all the books, priced at apparently what the market will bear: so it isn't that they don't do digital, but they have made specific choices about what they are releasing.
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
But do you buy those textbooks from Barnes and Noble? Or your local independent bookseller?
I buy them wherever I get the best price. Sometimes that's from a local bookseller. Sometimes that's from a seller through Amazon. And, some books are exclusively available through my college bookstore.
 

gyor

Adventurer
I like 5e better then 4e, but the one thing 4e did better then 5e was handling digital content.

Wizard's kept the digital stuff in house, so you payed a subscription for for everything, including Dragon and Dungeon magazine, but you didn't have to purchase everything twice.
 

Satyrn

Villager
On the contrary, I do think it's unreasonable to think their justifiable concerns about piracy would mean that they wouldn't even be willing to perform the research.
I'd think WotC has lots of data about PDF sales from DMs Guild, and from conversations with Green Ronin and Mearls' experience with Monte Cook's company, etc.
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
On the contrary, I do think it's unreasonable to think their justifiable concerns about piracy would mean that they wouldn't even be willing to perform the research. Politicians avoid gathering data that may contradict their assumptions, but businesspeople do not.

Then again, you just called them "paranoid", so maybe you also think they are "willfully ignorant" or whatever.

("What? Digital millennials sharing PDFs with each other? Yeah, that's just freaking paranoid.")

What's ironic is that you are basically accusing them of ignoring any information that might contradict the foregone conclusions you ascribe to them, and yet you seem (based on your posts) to have already decided they are just flat out wrong for not giving you the products that you want, and are ignoring any evidence/arguments that suggest maybe this is the right decision for them (if not for you).
Compared to other companies? Yes, I'd say paranoid is an appropriate (if slightly excessive) adjective.

Also, what do "millennials" have to do with this? People have been copying CDs and Cassettes and VHS tapes well before millennials were a generation for people to excrete upon to popular applause.

You know, I generally like several of the points you make in discussions on the forums (I've tossed my fair share of xp your way in my time here), but for some reason you've started spouting buzzwords like "special snowflakes" and "millennials" that usually make me simply ignore the person who says them. What's with that?
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
On the contrary, I do think it's unreasonable to think their justifiable concerns about piracy.
This repeated piracy concern claim needs a cite more frequent than something a CEO said two management regimes ago. I think it’s nonsense. The digital issue is rooted in distribution agreements, not piracy fears.
 

tuxedoraptor

Villager
I personally never used orcpub, but wizards of the coast is seriously overstepping here. Money is very tight in the united states,a lot of people just can't afford to drop 50$ on a book. If the consumer doesn't want to pay for something, they won't and they never will. I only toss money at companies I reliably use and deeply enjoy, The Admiral is not a fan of piracy. If you do it, don’t advocate it or bring it up. Thank you.
 
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Elfcrusher

Adventurer
This repeated piracy concern claim needs a cite more frequent than something a CEO said two management regimes ago. I think it’s nonsense. The digital issue is rooted in distribution agreements, not piracy fears.
Agreed. I should have said "On the contrary, I do think it's unreasonable to think that justifiable concerns about piracy..." and not attributed such concerns to WotC. I was really just accepting the assertion that they are, in fact, concerned. But I don't think it's necessary to explain/defend their business decisions.
 

Elfcrusher

Adventurer
I personally never used orcpub, but wizards of the coast is seriously overstepping here. Money is very tight in the united states,a lot of people just can't afford to drop 50$ on a book. If the consumer doesn't want to pay for something, they won't and they never will. I only toss money at companies I reliably use and deeply enjoy, otherwise I just torrent all the D&D books because I am broke and paying for these books is overrated.
So, in other words, they're not really losing a customer (you) by shutting down Orcpub?

Or, seen another way, they are greatly inconveniencing people who aren't planning to buy their products? Outrageous.
 

Elfcrusher

Adventurer
Also, what do "millennials" have to do with this? People have been copying CDs and Cassettes and VHS tapes well before millennials were a generation for people to excrete upon to popular applause.
Excellent point. They should worry about most of their potential customer base pirating, not just the millennials. (I only cited the millennials because the research I've seen..admittedly from early 2000's...shows younger audiences most likely to disregard copyright.)

You know, I generally like several of the points you make in discussions on the forums (I've tossed my fair share of xp your way in my time here), but for some reason you've started spouting buzzwords like "special snowflakes" and "millennials" that usually make me simply ignore the person who says them. What's with that?
Dunno. Feeling snarky today. Thanks for pointing it out; I'll try to tone it down.
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
Yeah, the United States is well know for not being the richest, most affluent country on the planet. I mean, we only have90% of the world’s wealth! Its tough going.
It's not as if each person in the US has an equal share of that 90%. Most of it's concentrated in a small fraction of the US population.

Also, basic necessities tend to cost more here. So, it's not as if we make US incomes and pay expenses at prices found in Mexico (or elsewhere).
 

Corrosive

Adventurer
It's not as if each person in the US has an equal share of that 90%. Most of it's concentrated in a small fraction of the US population.

Also, basic necessities tend to cost more here. So, it's not as if we make US incomes and pay expenses at prices found in Mexico (or elsewhere).
Wait, what? You think we’re poor? Compared to Mexico?

We earn more than anybody else in the Western world, *and* our goods cost less than anywhere else in the Western world. If you don’t feel affluent, you haven’t travelled outside the US, have you?

We talk about the 1%, but we *are* the 1% worldwide. Well maybe not 1% as the population isn’t that big yet, but 5%. Acknowledging that is the least we can do, intellectually.
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
Wait, what? You think we’re poor? Compared to Mexico?
I did not say that. I said that basic necessities cost more here. Most Americans have incomes high enough to be the envy of people in other parts of the world. That's certainly true. However, our expenses are not priced at the same amounts that theirs are. Yes, a minimum wage American earns enough that many people in the world would love to earn that much. But, those same minimum wage Americans have to pay vastly more for transportation, housing, health care, etc. than people do in other parts of the world.

Very many Americans, despite how appealing their income is to people in other parts of the world, are left with little to no disposable income after you subtract the cost of necessary expenses.
 

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