Rapid Spell and Nature's Ally

[Hypersmurf]

The Rapid Spell feat states that a rapid spell with casting time measured by rounds could be cast in full round, and the casting time of SNA X is 1 round that is measured by rounds (1 round, 2 rounds, etc.).

Right, except that it's also a spell with a casting time of one full round.

A Rapid Lesser Restoration (normally 3 round casting time) has a casting time of one full round. Not a full round action, but one full round.

SNA has a casting time measured in rounds, but it's more specifically a spell with a casting time of one round, and there's a specific rule for spells with a casting time of one round that applies, rather than the general rule for spells with a casting time measured in rounds.

Notice that the feat doesn't mention what happens to a spell with a casting time of one full round action. Which makes sense, because prepared casters don't have any spells with that casting time, and spontaneous casters can't use Rapid Spell with them.

So acording to rhe rule, if Rapid spell is applied to a spontaneously cast SNA x...

You can't. Rapid Spell can only be applied to a spontaneous spell if the casting time is longer than one full round. Not a full round action, a round. SNA has a casting time of one round - not longer than one full round, and thus not eligible for Rapid Spell when cast spontaneously.

In the Complete Mage, however, I found something very controversial.

Complete Mage got the feat wrong. Unless you're not casting it spontaneously, in which case it's right.

Since 1-round casting time is totally different from full-round casting,

A one round casting time is different to a casting time of a full round action. Not different to a casting time of one full round.

-Hyp.

 

[aland]

A Rapid Lesser Restoration (normally 3 round casting time) has a casting time of one full round. Not a full round action, but one full round.

Doesn't casting time of one full round mean it would take a full round action to cast?

SNA has a casting time measured in rounds, but it's more specifically a spell with a casting time of one round, and there's a specific rule for spells with a casting time of one round that applies, rather than the general rule for spells with a casting time measured in rounds.

Since SNA has a casting time measured in rounds, then why coundn't it gain the benefit of the Rapid Spell feat "A rapid spell with a casting time measured in rounds can be cast in 1 full round."

You can't. Rapid Spell can only be applied to a spontaneous spell if the casting time is longer than one full round. Not a full round action, a round. SNA has a casting time of one round - not longer than one full round, and thus not eligible for Rapid Spell when cast spontaneously.

A one round casting time is different to a casting time of a full round action. Not different to a casting time of one full round.

One round casting time IS different from full round casting time. You get the effect of the spell at the beginning of your next turn while with the later you get the effect at the end of the turn(e.g. a sorcerer applying a metamagic feat to a spell with a casting time of one standard action). So one round casting time definitely is longer than full round casting time.

And "A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action" (from SRD), "Despite the similarity in wording, a spell that requires a “full-round action” to cast (such as that required by a metamagic-affected sorcerer spell) isn’t the same as a spell with a “1-round casting time” (such as that of a summon monster spell).(from FAQ P41)

 

[aland]

By the way, all the questions above are based on the fact that after I looked through the Whole three core books and even the rules of the game, I found no single description named "full round casting time" or "casting time: full round", which appears in the Rapid Spell description. The only thing I found having the closest meaning is the rules about applying metamagic feats to spontaneously cast spells (standard action--->full round actions, and takes effect at the end of the turn), and it's totally, totally different from a "one round casting time".

 

[Zurai]

By the way, all the questions above are based on the fact that after I looked through the Whole three core books and even the rules of the game, I found no single description named "full round casting time" or "casting time: full round", which appears in the Rapid Spell description. The only thing I found having the closest meaning is the rules about applying metamagic feats to spontaneously cast spells (standard action--->full round actions, and takes effect at the end of the turn), and it's totally, totally different from a "one round casting time".

From the PHB:

Most spells have a casting time of 1 standard action. Others take 1 round or more, while a few require only a free action. Chapter 8: Combat describes the difference between these types of actions. A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.
...
When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the concentration from the current round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration before the casting is complete, you lose the spell.

Look at the various Summon spells for examples of spells with a 1 round casting time. This is as compared to a spell that takes a full-round action to cast, such as one of the options when casting Channeled Pyroburst (PHB2).

 

[aland]

Look at the various Summon spells for examples of spells with a 1 round casting time. This is as compared to a spell that takes a full-round action to cast

From SRD:"A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. "
However, this doesn't mean a spell that takes a full round action to cast is necessarily a spell with a casting time of 1 round.

As quoted above,"Despite the similarity in wording, a spell that requires a “full-round action” to cast (such as that required by a metamagic-affected sorcerer spell) isn’t the same as a spell with a “1-round casting time” (such as that of a summon monster spell).(from FAQ P41)"

So for Channeled Pyroburst, if you take a full round action to cast it, this spell deals damage at the end of the turn, not the beginning of your next turn.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Doesn't casting time of one full round mean it would take a full round action to cast?

That's a casting time of one full round action. A full round is a round. A full round action is most of one person's turn within a round.

If the word 'action' isn't there, it's longer.

Since SNA has a casting time measured in rounds, then why coundn't it gain the benefit of the Rapid Spell feat "A rapid spell with a casting time measured in rounds can be cast in 1 full round."

That's not a benefit - you're going from taking a round to cast, to taking a round to cast. Note that a rapid spell with a casting time measured in rounds can't be cast with a single full round action; it still takes a full round to cast.

But as a spell that takes a full round (not just a full round action) to cast without the feat, Rapid SNA can be cast as a standard action. It just can't be cast spontaneously, since Rapid Spell can't apply to a spell cast spontaneously unless its normal casting time is longer than one full round.

So one round casting time definitely is longer than full round casting time.

It's longer than a full round action casting time. The time it takes to cast a one round spell is a full round.

-Hyp.

 

[aland]

That's a casting time of one full round action. A full round is a round. A full round action is most of one person's turn within a round.

If the word 'action' isn't there, it's longer.



That's not a benefit - you're going from taking a round to cast, to taking a round to cast. Note that a rapid spell with a casting time measured in rounds can't be cast with a single full round action; it still takes a full round to cast.

But as a spell that takes a full round (not just a full round action) to cast without the feat, Rapid SNA can be cast as a standard action. It just can't be cast spontaneously, since Rapid Spell can't apply to a spell cast spontaneously unless its normal casting time is longer than one full round.



It's longer than a full round action casting time. The time it takes to cast a one round spell is a full round.

-Hyp.

So the problem goes back to : What's the definition of "Casting time: full round".
There's casting time: 1 standard action, there's casting time: 1 round, but there's never a "casting time: full round", just a "casting time: full round action."

 

[aland]

That's not a benefit - you're going from taking a round to cast, to taking a round to cast. Note that a rapid spell with a casting time measured in rounds can't be cast with a single full round action; it still takes a full round to cast.

As I said before, the summoned ally appears at the beginning of your next turn, during which time enemies could throw a fireball on you and interrupt your spell. Wizards in your team have to cast another Haste next turn, if he ever wants to. By reducing the casting time to one "full round", the ally you summoned right at the end of your turn and you have less chance to get interrupted and your other allies could easily buff the summoned monster. How could all this be NOT a benefit?

Still, I think we should define what a "casting time: full round" is first, or the debate would seem pointless and everlasting.

 

[Hypersmurf]

By reducing the casting time to one "full round", the ally you summoned right at the end of your turn...

That's if you reduce the casting time to a full round action.

What's the definition of "Casting time: full round".

It's not phrased like that, though - it's written as a phrase, 'a casting time of one full round'. A full round is an entire initiative cycle; a full round action occurs in a single person's turn.

Consider:
A stone to flesh spell does not actually change the golem’s structure but negates its damage reduction and immunity to magic for 1 full round.

----
Ice Storm
Duration: 1 full round
Great magical hailstones pound down for 1 full round, dealing 3d6 points of bludgeoning damage and 2d6 points of cold damage to every creature in the area. A -4 penalty applies to each Listen check made within the ice storm’s effect, and all land movement within its area is at half speed. At the end of the duration, the hail disappears, leaving no aftereffects (other than the damage dealt).

----
The pudding’s acidic touch deals 21 points of damage per round to wooden or metal objects, but the ooze must remain in contact with the object for 1 full round to deal this damage.

...

In such a case, the amount of damage is equal to 10 + ½ ooze’s HD + ooze’s Con modifier per full round of contact.

----
Enthrall
Casting Time: 1 round
If you have the attention of a group of creatures, you can use this spell to hold them spellbound. To cast the spell, you must speak or sing without interruption for 1 full round.

----
To inspire heroics, a bard must sing and an ally must hear the bard sing for a full round.

Look at the Enthrall description. Casting time: 1 round. How long does it take to cast the spell? 1 full round.

A full round is longer than a full round action.

-Hyp.

 

[aland]

I see your point now, yet it's kind of weird, since the "full round casting time" in your understanding technically equals to "1 round casting time".

However, if they're of the same time coverage, it's more difficult to understand what the Rapid Feat is meant for.

A rapid spell with a casting
time of 1 full round can be cast as a standard action. A
rapid spell with a casting time measured in rounds can be
cast in 1 full round.

So a 1 full round(1 round) casting time spell can be cast with a standard action, while a 1 round (1 full round) casting time spell has to be cast in 1 full roun (1 round)...

Typically I'd rather believe the writer forgot to type the word "action" when he wrote this part....