Storyteller01
First Post
Sithobi1 said:
I don't think they start with the ability to fly outright. Per this thread, it looks like you glide first.
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Raptorans
- Thread starter herbie
- Start date
I don't think they start with the ability to fly outright. Per this thread, it looks like you glide first.
UltimaGabe
First Post
Sithobi1 said:
The reason it's worth mentioning is because it's supposed to be compared to the Human- at first level, the human has 1 feat and 4 extra skill points, whereas the Raptorans have a +10 to jump checks- which, in effect, is 10 extra skill points (it's much more limited, of course, but at least it's worth mentioning). And that's just the tip of the iceberg- so if someone could rationalize that a +10 to jump checks is equivalent to +4 skill points at first level, then they'd have to rationalize that all of their other tons of abilities (that is, that north-sensor thingie, the bonus to caster levels, and eventually, the ability to FLY) is worth one feat. That's the only way it could be balanced with the Human.
I advise that it be HR'ed to LA +1.
Jeff Wilder
First Post
So in the games where raptorans are allowed, is everybody flocking (heh) to play them? Not in my game (or the two in which I'm a player), that's for sure.
TheEvil
Explorer
Actually, since they cannot fly in heavier armors without PrCs or feat expenditure, it does tend to limit what classes/styles are usable.
Frankly, having read through them, I don't see them as overpowered, and would consider them underpowered for LA+1 (though not a bad off as hobgoblins).
I will go ahead and do a blow-by-blow response.
at 5th level Human would have:
1 Extra Feat
8 Extra Skill points
Main advantage - Fully customizable
At 5th a Raptoran gets
+10 Jump - Doesn't come up very often in most games I have been in.
+2 Spot/Climb - Only the spot check is likely to get much use, esp. since you can fly for at least one round at this point.
Unerring Direction - Is knowing which way north is really that useful in your game?
Low-Light Vision - Always nice to have.
+1 Air Descriptor Spells - The following spells in the SRD: Air Walk, Control Winds, Elemental Swarm, Gust of Wind, Whirlwind, Whispering Wind, Wind Walk, Wind Wall.
Footbow Exotic Weapon Prof. - Not bad, but availability to find a magic one may limit it's usefulness.
Limited Flying Ability - 1 round per con bonus per day without penality, if I remember correctly. Even at 18 con, exactly how is 4 rounds of flying per day overpowering? Sure, it can be extended with gliding, but all that really does is mean that you can get one or two good overhead looks per day. The armor restictions on flight really hurt most at this point. No falling damage is nice, but that seems to almost never come up in games. I believe feats and PrCs can improve on this ability.
_________________
10th Human
1 Feat
13 Skill Points
Still fully customizable!
10th Raptoran
+10 Jump - see above, and now I can fly whenever I like.
+2 Spot/Climb - see above and ditto.
Unerring Direction see above
Low-Light Vision - see above
+1 Air Descriptor Spells - see above
Footbow Exotic Weapon Prof. - see above
No Limit Flying Ability - Finally useful for things besides short hops and looks, but still not the be all and end all. You still have armor restrictions unless you expend feats/PrCs to fix this. I don't believe you can ever wear heavy armor. Also, average maneuverability without feats. There is also the downside of being the easiest target for archers if you are airborn and visible.
I'm just having a hard time seeing these races as equals Level Adjustment wise.
Basically, the power of the race is going to be very campaign dependent. If the character really emphesises the strengths in a campaign that is largely outdoors, they may be a little over powered, possibly as much as LA+1, but that is only if all the campaign variables really play to the race. On a side note, people seem to constantly underestimate the benifits of being able to target your bonuses where you want them.
Frankly, having read through them, I don't see them as overpowered, and would consider them underpowered for LA+1 (though not a bad off as hobgoblins).
I will go ahead and do a blow-by-blow response.
at 5th level Human would have:
1 Extra Feat
8 Extra Skill points
Main advantage - Fully customizable
At 5th a Raptoran gets
+10 Jump - Doesn't come up very often in most games I have been in.
+2 Spot/Climb - Only the spot check is likely to get much use, esp. since you can fly for at least one round at this point.
Unerring Direction - Is knowing which way north is really that useful in your game?
Low-Light Vision - Always nice to have.
+1 Air Descriptor Spells - The following spells in the SRD: Air Walk, Control Winds, Elemental Swarm, Gust of Wind, Whirlwind, Whispering Wind, Wind Walk, Wind Wall.
Footbow Exotic Weapon Prof. - Not bad, but availability to find a magic one may limit it's usefulness.
Limited Flying Ability - 1 round per con bonus per day without penality, if I remember correctly. Even at 18 con, exactly how is 4 rounds of flying per day overpowering? Sure, it can be extended with gliding, but all that really does is mean that you can get one or two good overhead looks per day. The armor restictions on flight really hurt most at this point. No falling damage is nice, but that seems to almost never come up in games. I believe feats and PrCs can improve on this ability.
_________________
10th Human
1 Feat
13 Skill Points
Still fully customizable!
10th Raptoran
+10 Jump - see above, and now I can fly whenever I like.
+2 Spot/Climb - see above and ditto.
Unerring Direction see above
Low-Light Vision - see above
+1 Air Descriptor Spells - see above
Footbow Exotic Weapon Prof. - see above
No Limit Flying Ability - Finally useful for things besides short hops and looks, but still not the be all and end all. You still have armor restrictions unless you expend feats/PrCs to fix this. I don't believe you can ever wear heavy armor. Also, average maneuverability without feats. There is also the downside of being the easiest target for archers if you are airborn and visible.
I'm just having a hard time seeing these races as equals Level Adjustment wise.
Basically, the power of the race is going to be very campaign dependent. If the character really emphesises the strengths in a campaign that is largely outdoors, they may be a little over powered, possibly as much as LA+1, but that is only if all the campaign variables really play to the race. On a side note, people seem to constantly underestimate the benifits of being able to target your bonuses where you want them.
I don't have the Raptorrians stats i front of me but to see if they are overpowered let’s compare them to other races:
DWARVES
• +2 Constitution, –2 Charisma.
• Medium: As Medium creatures, dwarves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).
• Darkvision: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all.
• Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up.
• Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
• Stability: A dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
• +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
• +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.
• +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids.
• +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too.
• +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items.
• +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.
• Automatic Languages: Common and Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon.
• Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass dwarf ’s fighter class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing
ELVES
• +2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution.
• Medium: As Medium creatures, elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Elf base land speed is 30 feet.
• Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.
• Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
• Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.
• +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.
• Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan.
• Favored Class: Wizard. A multiclass elf ’s wizard class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.
GNOMES
• +2 Constitution, –2 Strength.
• Small: As a Small creature, a gnome gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but he uses smaller weapons than humans use, and his lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.
• Gnome base land speed is 20 feet.
• Low-Light Vision: A gnome can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
• Weapon Familiarity: Gnomes may treat gnome hooked hammers as martial weapons rather than exotic weapons.
• +2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions.
• Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against illusion spells cast by gnomes. This adjustment stacks with those from similar effects.
• +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids.
• +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too.
• +2 racial bonus on Listen checks.
• +2 racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks.
• Automatic Languages: Common and Gnome. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Goblin, and Orc. In addition, a gnome can speak with a burrowing mammal (a badger, fox, rabbit, or the like, see below). This ability is innate to gnomes. See the speak with animals spell description.
• Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—speak with animals (burrowing mammal only, duration 1 minute). A gnome with a Charisma score of at least 10 also has the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation. Caster level 1st; save DC 10 + gnome’s Cha modifier + spell level.
• Favored Class: Bard. A multiclass gnome’s bard class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty.
By 10th level any race can fly (take 5 levels of wizard and gain the fly spell) so it really isn;t that big an advantage by then.
Dwarves' saving throw bonuses come into play a heck of lot more often than do a bonus to jump. They also aren't slowed down by any armor (love that 3.5 mod).
DWARVES
• +2 Constitution, –2 Charisma.
• Medium: As Medium creatures, dwarves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).
• Darkvision: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all.
• Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up.
• Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
• Stability: A dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
• +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
• +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.
• +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids.
• +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too.
• +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items.
• +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.
• Automatic Languages: Common and Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon.
• Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass dwarf ’s fighter class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing
ELVES
• +2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution.
• Medium: As Medium creatures, elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Elf base land speed is 30 feet.
• Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.
• Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
• Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.
• +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.
• Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan.
• Favored Class: Wizard. A multiclass elf ’s wizard class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.
GNOMES
• +2 Constitution, –2 Strength.
• Small: As a Small creature, a gnome gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but he uses smaller weapons than humans use, and his lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.
• Gnome base land speed is 20 feet.
• Low-Light Vision: A gnome can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
• Weapon Familiarity: Gnomes may treat gnome hooked hammers as martial weapons rather than exotic weapons.
• +2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions.
• Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against illusion spells cast by gnomes. This adjustment stacks with those from similar effects.
• +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids.
• +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too.
• +2 racial bonus on Listen checks.
• +2 racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks.
• Automatic Languages: Common and Gnome. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Goblin, and Orc. In addition, a gnome can speak with a burrowing mammal (a badger, fox, rabbit, or the like, see below). This ability is innate to gnomes. See the speak with animals spell description.
• Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—speak with animals (burrowing mammal only, duration 1 minute). A gnome with a Charisma score of at least 10 also has the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation. Caster level 1st; save DC 10 + gnome’s Cha modifier + spell level.
• Favored Class: Bard. A multiclass gnome’s bard class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty.
By 10th level any race can fly (take 5 levels of wizard and gain the fly spell) so it really isn;t that big an advantage by then.
Dwarves' saving throw bonuses come into play a heck of lot more often than do a bonus to jump. They also aren't slowed down by any armor (love that 3.5 mod).
Kae'Yoss
First Post
irdeggman said:
That's right. You just have to compare them to dwarves. If the race seems to be a better choice than dwarves, they're LA +1 at the very least.
Of course, they could look worse than dwarves and still warrant LA +1, but that's another story. With better than dwarves you're sure to need a level adjustment.
UltimaGabe
First Post
Hmm... so, then, is the problem here that Humans are underpowered, not that Raptorans are overpowered?
Kae'Yoss
First Post
UltimaGabe said:
Yes, humans could definetly use some boost. At least, I'd give them weapon familiarity with any weapon of choice (so either an exotic weapon becomes a martial weapon, or a martial weapon becomes a simple weapon. Or, in the case of a wizard, or the like, free simple weapon proficiency).
