Ravenloft is being folded into the core setting for 4E (Domains of Dread)

[JesterOC]

Well.. I have only DMed the original Ravenloft module. Anyone care to give me a quick heads up of what this is. Was it an area near of Ravenloft, or was it planar in nature.

JesterOC

 

[Amphimir Míriel]

This. I don't know what the plans are for Ravenloft's domains in 4E--I knew it was coming in Dragon, but with this announcement, you all now officially know as much as I do--but it wouldn't surprise me at all to see the domains introduced simply as just that: domains. Small kingdoms/realms of horror that can go anywhere, and don't need to be tied together into their own demiplane unless the DM wants 'em to be.

I could be way off-base. Just saying I could see it.

God, I hope you are right!

I could certainly put a Barovia or a Kartakass in some insolated part of my game world, but I´d be more leery of doing the whole demiplane thing...

Count me in for Halloween issues of Dragon and Dungeon

 

[Green Knight]

This. I don't know what the plans are for Ravenloft's domains in 4E--I knew it was coming in Dragon, but with this announcement, you all now officially know as much as I do--but it wouldn't surprise me at all to see the domains introduced simply as just that: domains. Small kingdoms/realms of horror that can go anywhere, and don't need to be tied together into their own demiplane unless the DM wants 'em to be.

I could be way off-base. Just saying I could see it.

I'd prefer this over the thought of gutting the campaign setting in some way, which is what I'm terrified of. My fear is that they'll turn it into a setting which is no longer a demiplane, which is no longer hard to escape from, and which has numerous elements from core forced into it (like easy planar travel, Dragonborn, and so on). Well, we'll see how things turn out, but I'm more then a little worried. Especially disappointing, as I think Ravenloft could make a hell of a setting for 4E, but only so long as the campaign setting itself was kept mostly intact.

 

[Cadfan]

Was the whole "demiplane" thing really that important for people?

I always felt that it detracted from the setting. I thought it "broke the fourth wall," so to speak. It seemed to me like it was an effort at wrenching Ravenloft into the planar cosmology, even though the sorts of horror stories it tried to tell really didn't deal with plane-hopping in the 2e cosmological sense.

I'm... not really describing this well. I felt like it turned Ravenloft from "the world" into "a world amongst many," rendering the dark powers that control the plane into mere provincial villains.

 

[Keenath]

I always felt that it detracted from the setting. I thought it "broke the fourth wall," so to speak. It seemed to me like it was an effort at wrenching Ravenloft into the planar cosmology, even though the sorts of horror stories it tried to tell really didn't deal with plane-hopping in the 2e cosmological sense.

I'm... not really describing this well. I felt like it turned Ravenloft from "the world" into "a world amongst many," rendering the dark powers that control the plane into mere provincial villains.

No, I agree with that. I like the stories being told IN Ravenloft, but the nature of the planes was always weird and silly to me. Why do I need Dark Powers and a Plane of Dread to tell a story about a madman who is ultimately defeated by his own nature?

I'd be happier with Ravenloft being its own campaign setting than some plane out there somewhere. I'd rather it was just the nature of the world, than having to listen to mumbling about how the gods can't or won't reach here and these Dark Powers keep you from being able to get in and out unless they want you to...

 

[Danzauker]

You've gotta admit, Ravenloft's got "points of light" down pat.

Actually, I think most of the new / most innovative settings were all PoL style at the beginning.

In Dark Sun, you just knew that there were those City States around, and all the rest had to be filled.

Planescape, gave a broad vision of every plane, and some interesting place here and there, like the Gate-Towns.

Heck, Spelljammer was LITERALLY "points of light in a sea of darkness"!!!!

 

[EATherrian]

Was the whole "demiplane" thing really that important for people?

I always felt that it detracted from the setting. I thought it "broke the fourth wall," so to speak. It seemed to me like it was an effort at wrenching Ravenloft into the planar cosmology, even though the sorts of horror stories it tried to tell really didn't deal with plane-hopping in the 2e cosmological sense.

I'm... not really describing this well. I felt like it turned Ravenloft from "the world" into "a world amongst many," rendering the dark powers that control the plane into mere provincial villains.

I enjoyed the demiplane aspect of Ravenloft. It added a suffocating dimension to the whole campaign knowing that even if you get out of one horrible nightmare you're still stuck in the dream. Plus is allowed things to develop naturally or new areas to just appear. Don't know how to do it well otherwise.

 

[Green Knight]

No, I agree with that. I like the stories being told IN Ravenloft, but the nature of the planes was always weird and silly to me. Why do I need Dark Powers and a Plane of Dread to tell a story about a madman who is ultimately defeated by his own nature?

You don't need them to run A game like that. But you do need them to explain why every single country is dominated by a being of oppressive evil, and why each of these lords represents a varying type of evil. That's one of the things that was so great about Ravenloft. All the various domains, and how each of them represented a different slice of evil, mimicking the darklord who ruled over it.

The Dark Powers also added the element of drawing in the darklords from various worlds, all of whom were trapped and wanted out. You also need the Dark Powers to explain why each and every single darklord is cursed and why they're trapped within the borders of their domains, and within the world, itself. Not to mention Powers Checks, punishing (or rewarding?) those who commit horrific evils.

Making it a prison and preventing planar travel also added to the claustrophobic feel. The message was essentially "This is the world you live in. It's dark and bleak and miserable, and the powers that rule it are the darkest of evils, and no matter how hard you try you can't escape it. So the only thing you can do is give in or fight against it, no matter how long the odds against you are." It also gave us great things like demons and devils trapped in Ravenloft and unable to leave.

As for the demiplane, it further separated Ravenloft from your run-of-the-mill campaign. The world literally is flat. Sail far enough to the west and you'll hit the edge. The demiplane nature also allowed the landscape to reshape itself on occasion (far less painlessly then what they did with the Forgotten Realms, I might add).

The Dark Powers, the demiplane, the mists, these're all defining characteristics of Ravenloft. They're what make it more then just another horror game, and what separate it from every other campaign setting out there. Removing those elements means that it's no longer Ravenloft.

 

[frankthedm]

Was the whole "demiplane" thing really that important for people?

I always felt that it detracted from the setting. I thought it "broke the fourth wall," so to speak. It seemed to me like it was an effort at wrenching Ravenloft into the planar cosmology, even though the sorts of horror stories it tried to tell really didn't deal with plane-hopping in the 2e cosmological sense.

I'm... not really describing this well. I felt like it turned Ravenloft from "the world" into "a world amongst many," rendering the dark powers that control the plane into mere provincial villains.

It was done:

Because T$R had decided everything did need to tie into the great wheel.
To justify changes to the magic system.
To allow Dark Lords with themes the DM's campaign setting did not have.
To allow domains to be used as samplings of other campaign settings.

 

[Cadfan]

No, I agree with that. I like the stories being told IN Ravenloft, but the nature of the planes was always weird and silly to me. Why do I need Dark Powers and a Plane of Dread to tell a story about a madman who is ultimately defeated by his own nature?

I liked the Dark Powers, if you took out the stuff about them trapping you in a small, provincial plane ruled by vampires. I liked the idea of a campaign setting where the gods were weak and distant, and nebulous Dark Powers ruled.

I enjoyed the demiplane aspect of Ravenloft. It added a suffocating dimension to the whole campaign knowing that even if you get out of one horrible nightmare you're still stuck in the dream. Plus is allowed things to develop naturally or new areas to just appear. Don't know how to do it well otherwise.

See, I felt it made things less suffocating, by highlighting the fact that other worlds existed.

You don't need them to run A game like that. But you do need them to explain why every single country is dominated by a being of oppressive evil, and why each of these lords represents a varying type of evil.

I get that, I just don't think you need the planar aspect (in the 2e era style of things) to have Dark Powers.

The Dark Powers also added the element of drawing in the darklords from various worlds, all of whom were trapped and wanted out.

Alright, you do need the planar aspect for that part of the setting. I just never found the "potpourri of evil from around the universe" thing to be that important to the setting as a whole.

As for the demiplane, it further separated Ravenloft from your run-of-the-mill campaign. The world literally is flat. Sail far enough to the west and you'll hit the edge. The demiplane nature also allowed the landscape to reshape itself on occasion (far less painlessly then what they did with the Forgotten Realms, I might add).

You don't need the demiplane thing to have these things. You could simply declare that these things are the way the world works. The demiplane thing is only truly necessary for commerce with other planes, and that's what sticks in my craw.

The Dark Powers, the demiplane, the mists, these're all defining characteristics of Ravenloft. They're what make it more then just another horror game, and what separate it from every other campaign setting out there. Removing those elements means that it's no longer Ravenloft.

I like the Dark Powers, the mists, the weird landscape, all of those things are great. I just don't think you need to put Ravenloft into the larger planar cosmology to have most of them.

There are only three things I can think of that stem from making Ravenloft a demiplane but which cannot be explained as easily or better by not making Ravenloft a demiplane:

1. Evil people from other planes getting abducted to Ravenloft.
2. PCs discovering the existence of other worlds and being prevented from getting there by the Dark Powers, or, overcoming the Dark Powers and escaping.
3. PCs from other planes getting stuck in Ravenloft.

I don't think any of these really help the setting, but then again I'm the sort of person who feels that having the PCs suddenly discover the existence of all kinds of other planes, then having them run off to have adventures in them, is the D&D version of a campaign jumping the shark.