RAW double jump

[Rafe]

Well, let me ask this....

What's to stop you from jumping again after the first square of a three square jump, according to RAW?

True. Someone could say to jump 1 square then, using a second move action in the same round, jump the remaining 2. That seems pretty absurd to me. Situations like this are certainly cases where RAW should be overridden in favour of common sense.

 

[AntiStateQuixote]

I'll be the dissenting voice here.

Eladrin move action 1: running high jump of one or more squares, but less than the necessary six squares to clear the goal.
Eladrin move action 2: teleport the remaining distance. This action begins immediately while the Eladrin is in the air allowing the character to reach the necessary six square height.

Why? Because it's freaking cool. It burns an encounter power and takes two actions. If this happened in a combat encounter I would absolutlely allow it: it's cinematic and not overpowered at all. Out of combat I guess I can see how a DM might be annoyed that the low level PCs overcome a somewhat difficult challenge this way, but so what. It's fun and cool and looks neat.

By RAW it's probably not allowed, but it's clever thinking and doesn't totally break the "physics" of the world. Why couldn't a creature that can teleport leap into the air and then activate its teleport power at the height of the jump? Why would s/he necessarily fall back to the ground before teleporting? I understand "the rules" say so . . . but whatever.

Applying the rules of D&D to the real world (I know, a dangerous thing, but bear with me) a NFL quarterback couldn't leap in the air (move action) and throw a pass downfield (attack action?) while in the air in an effort to clear the head/arms of a charging defensive lineman, but it happens regularly.

 

[Dracorat]

I'll be the dissenting voice here.

[...]

Why? Because it's freaking cool.

[...]

By RAW it's probably not allowed, but it's clever thinking and doesn't totally break the "physics" of the world.

[...]

I don't think anyone is really stating that it wouldn't be cool. There was simply a question of what the rules allow for, which even by your awn admission, they do not.

And there's plenty reason why you might have to be on the ground to Teleport. Getting in to a yoga pose to cast the spell could be one.

 

[Daedrova]

... "because the rules for jumping explicitly declare the resolution of the jump including height cleared and distance covered. Therefor, those resolutions must first come to pass before that action is considered resolved and another action that modifies the move is allowed." ...

The specific resolution declared by the RAW states how high you jump, and says nothing of what happens after you reach that height. Therefore the resolution has come to pass and is resolved once you reach that height, before taking the next (move+jump) action.
RAW further specifies that you can end a move action in mid-air...

I am not saying it is sensible, or that I would let a player do it in my game (.. though it could be fun in the right game) - but it still looks acceptable by the RAW.

 

[Daedrova]

While reading the previous replies I had another epiphany... so I flipped through the glossy pages of my PH and confirmed that there is an option that will indeed allow the Eladrin to jump then teleport in mid-air...

Ready an Action
(page 291)

Simply spend your standard action to ready the teleport to trigger after you have achieved the result (max height) of your jump check during the following move action.

RAW also supports cool

 

[Lord Sessadore]

While reading the previous replies I had another epiphany... so I flipped through the glossy pages of my PH and confirmed that there is an option that will indeed allow the Eladrin to jump then teleport in mid-air...

Ready an Action
(page 291)

Simply spend your standard action to ready the teleport to trigger after you have achieved the result (max height) of your jump check during the following move action.

RAW also supports cool

I won't argue that it's not cool - it is

However, I think you missed an important part of the debate here. Specifically, this:

Teleportation itself is a move action. In order to double move, you have to take the same move action twice and since this isn't at-will you cannot.

On the other hand, in the rules for subbing movements, it does say you can take two move actions, not that they necessarily need to be a "double move".

Yet, if you do that (take two moves) and you aren't double moving, you would have to resolve each movement. Ending the first movement in mid air isn't allowed. You aren't double moving, you are moving twice - this is an important distinction. "If you run out of movement you fall" the PHB says. With resolution of the fall, you're on solid ground again before you take the second move action.

So no, you cannot jump then teleport at the peak of the jump.

Edit: FWIW - if they're at least 3.7 foot tall, theyd be able to simply teleport with their hands in the air and grab the ledge at the top of the teleport. (Assuming they're teleporting straight up)

To reiterate, in order to end your move action mid-air with the Athletics skill, you must be taking a double move action. A double move action requires that both move actions be the same. Since Fey Step isn't at-will, this isn't possible.

Therefore, you must take your move action to run up and high jump, then sub your standard for the move action in order to Fey Step. However, you're trying to end your jump in mid-air, in which case the skill specifically states that you fall prone - before you get to Fey Step. Which means you're back to square 1.

Likewise, trying to ready an action to Fey Step when you reach the apex of your jump doesn't work. A readied action is an immediate reaction, which you can't take on your turn. Even if you declare that your turn ends at the apex of your jump so that you can use your readied action immediately after your turn but before the next character's turn, that means you are still ending your move action mid-air, which means you fall prone. Back to square 1 again.

Personally, I'd probably allow it in my game. But you asked whether the RAW support this, which I really don't think they do. Try something like the other party members throwing the eladrin in the air - readied action should work then, since it's not his turn, and I'm sure there's no rules about how throwing another character in the air works, so that's up to your DM how it works - even then, readied actions can interrupt other actions, especially movement-oriented ones. Also, a githyanki readying an action to use their racial power when an ally jumps should be just fine, RAW.

 

[Daedrova]

I won't argue that it's not cool - it is
However, I think you missed an important part of the debate here....
A readied action is an immediate reaction, which you can't take on your turn.

Well, the main point of the thread was to discuss the possibility of a "double jump" by RAW; but to address your points:
I had to hunt through the PH for the sentence stating "You can't take an immediate action on your own turn".. I was disappointed to find that it was there... subtle little irritant hidden at the end of the "Once per Round" paragraph on page 268...
So, no jump+teleport for the Eladrins. Strike my "RAW supports cool" statement

.. joke

Even if you declare that your turn ends at the apex of your jump so that you can use your readied action immediately after your turn but before the next character's turn, that means you are still ending your move action mid-air, which means you fall prone. Back to square 1 again.

Right, that was discussed above. You successfully killed the possibility by pointing out the readied action restriction

...that's up to your DM how it works...

I am the DM

...even then, readied actions can interrupt other actions, especially movement-oriented ones.

This is why I originally thought of the "ready, jump, teleport" trick.. alas.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Oh well, right? Perhaps you can take some encouragement that it took a board full of rules lawyers nearly 2 days to prove that the strictest, to-the-letter reading of the rules doesn't allow it. In other words ... no one at your home game is likely to call you on it in the middle of the game

 

[Sunglare]

I won't argue that it's not cool - it is

However, I think you missed an important part of the debate here. Specifically, this:
To reiterate, in order to end your move action mid-air with the Athletics skill, you must be taking a double move action. A double move action requires that both move actions be the same. Since Fey Step isn't at-will, this isn't possible.

Therefore, you must take your move action to run up and high jump, then sub your standard for the move action in order to Fey Step. However, you're trying to end your jump in mid-air, in which case the skill specifically states that you fall prone - before you get to Fey Step. Which means you're back to square 1.

Likewise, trying to ready an action to Fey Step when you reach the apex of your jump doesn't work. A readied action is an immediate reaction, which you can't take on your turn. Even if you declare that your turn ends at the apex of your jump so that you can use your readied action immediately after your turn but before the next character's turn, that means you are still ending your move action mid-air, which means you fall prone. Back to square 1 again.

Personally, I'd probably allow it in my game. But you asked whether the RAW support this, which I really don't think they do. Try something like the other party members throwing the eladrin in the air - readied action should work then, since it's not his turn, and I'm sure there's no rules about how throwing another character in the air works, so that's up to your DM how it works - even then, readied actions can interrupt other actions, especially movement-oriented ones. Also, a githyanki readying an action to use their racial power when an ally jumps should be just fine, RAW.

Why does he have to end his move in the air? He doesn't have to use all his movement while jumping. Per the Athletics skill he only falls if he runs out of movement but he only needs to jump two squares (10ft) up so he can then use his teleport to make it the rest of the way.
If a Eladrin has a speed of 6 then he can jump up 6 squares (30ft) before he falls down unless he is using a double move and then can continue to jump higher. It's no differant then if a Eladrin walks 2 squares then teleports but now he's doing it verticle.
By everybody elses reasoning here then a melee character couldn't jump 2 squares high to attack a hovering creature.

 

[Syrsuro]

I think the RAI is crystal clear and the RAW does not contradict it.

You can use a double move to extend the maximum distance you can move, but in no way does doing so extend the actual distance jumped - with or without a second roll.

The jump check specifically describes the maximum distance (or height) of the jump.
The maximum move (either single or double) determines the maximum distance of the move.

In a single move, if your jump distance extends beyond your move distance, you fall to the ground at that distance.
Making the jump as part of a double move (not a double jump) allows you to use the full jump distance, but doesn't make the jump itself any longer.

Example:
Character with a move of 6 moves 4 squares and jumps, rolling a modified 20. This gives him four squares of 'distance cleared'. But because that would exceed his total move of 6, he stops after two squares and falls to the ground. However, if he had made this jump as part of a double move, his total move distance is 12 and thus he moves the intial 4 squares, jumps 4 squares and still has 4 squares of movement left.

The meaning of 'end your move in mid-air' refers only to the point at which your first 'move' ends and in no way implies that you can roll an additional jump to extend that first jump. It merely says that you don't automatically fall to the ground at that point - as you would if you were not making a double move. It is analagous to the ability to 'end your first move' in an occupied square when making a standard double move.

That said - in the interest of 'cool' (however that is defined) I am willing to allow some flexibility in the rules. Certainly not jumping again mid-jump. That is, imho, ludicrous.

However I have no problem with a character, for example, jumping and then attacking at the end of their jump (and falling to the ground after the attack). Thus I likewise would allow a character to jump and teleport - but I would probably still have them land prone as they are essentially taking the second move action mid-fall and thus no longer, strictly speakding, standing upright when they start the teleport. And this second action must be declared before the jump (kinda like a double move) and there may be repercussions of some type when the character hits the ground since he is focusing on the attack and not on the landing. But this is in the realm of house rules and not strict RAW.

By RAW you cannot do this (barring odd item properties or other exceptions I'm not aware of).

Carl