Re-examining Sure Strike and Careful Attack

Mengu

First Post
Sure Strike and Careful Attack were coined to be the weakest fighter and ranger at-will powers respectively, when the PHB was first released. I'm just wondering if anything has changed, if anything in the current player arsenal makes these powers stronger.

Let's look at Exotic Fighting Style. Here are the relevant bits of the feat:

Exotic Fighting Style said:
Prerequisite: Any martial class, proficiency with a superior weapon
Sure Strike (fighter): If you are wielding a superior weapon and hit with this exploit, you can add the weapon’s proficiency bonus to the damage roll.

For a race that does not get a strength bonus, like a Tiefling or Elf fighter with 16 strength, if they grab a Bastard Sword and Exotic Fighting Style, Sure Strike suddenly becomes an at-will power that gives them a +2 attack bonus with virtually no penalty to damage.

Let's take a look at Grudge Style:

Grudge Style said:
Prerequisite: Wis 13 or dwarf race, any martial class
Sure Strike (fighter): If the target dealt you damage since the end of your last turn, you deal extra damage with this exploit equal to your Wisdom modifier.

For a Dwarf Battlerager who has difficulty hitting, and gets hit frequently, Sure Strike will boost that chance to hit significantly, and by using Wisdom for damage instead of Strength, he is not giving up too much damage, for that significant +2 to attack.

Careful Attack got a somewhat interesting option as well. Let's look at True Arrow Style:

True Arrow Style said:
Prerequisite: Dex 13, any martial class
Careful Attack (ranger): If you are wielding a ranged weapon and this attack misses, you can grant combat advantage to all enemies until the start of your next turn to make a ranged basic attack against the same target as a free action.

The reason Twin Strike is so good is because it makes sure you get two chances to apply Hunter's Quarry damage. Careful Attack + True Arrow Style, essentially gives you a +2 to that first attack roll, and should you miss, your second attack gets to add your dexterity modifier to damage. However, Twin Strike can target 2 separate enemies, might hit twice, and does not grant enemies CA against you. So it doesn't quite seem like worth the feat to turn Careful attack into a weaker Twin Strike. And if you look at what some of the arena style feats do for Twin Strike in melee, Careful Attack is still quite the underdog in that department as well.

So, can you think of some other abilities that might turn Sure Strike and Careful attack into interesting (if not optimal) options?
 

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One thing I think about these powers is that trying to trick them out with damage isn't necessary, and is almost going against the very spirit of the power. Instead of looking at damage, let's focus on what the power does: accuracy.

My suggested House Rule. The powers work as normal, with this addition:
Hit: 1[W], and you receive a +2 power bonus to attack on your next attack against the target.

Thus you receive an incentive to not use it every round, but instead every other round. And it encourages you to not blow your Encounter/Dailies right away, instead opting to hold them for when you have more accuracy.
 
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My suggested House Rule. The powers work as normal, with this addition:
Hit: 1[W], and you receive a +2 power bonus to attack on your next attack against the target.

I agree, that was my suggested house rule as well (except I had verbage for "before the end of your next turn").

But that doesn't seem to currently be one of the options, so I'm just wondering with all the existing feats, races, paragon paths, etc, if anything makes these at-will powers more interesting.
 

These powers are perfectly fine as they are written and I've been known to take them with both classes in the past. I take them because they ensure a hit. There is nothing more annoying then going up against the big bad and not being able to properly defend. For the ranger it assures Hunter's Quarry! Can you imagine if the rogue had a power like this? Everyone would take it to assure Backstab damage.
 

One thing I think about these powers is that trying to trick them out with damage isn't necessary, and is almost going against the very spirit of the power.

I totally disagree.

I think the designers just screwed up royally on them.

The powers as designed are less potent than a Melee Basic Attack. They do less damage per hit and average less damage overall (assuming a creature with a positive Str modifier) and have zero other uses. It's an incredibly bad design which the designers should have erratted long ago. Most other At Will martial powers are a MBA (or RBA) plus some special property. These At Will powers should follow that model as well. That is how balanced is achieved.

I do not think one can deduce that the designers did not want them to do damage when the power itself is extremely lacking in design balance. One can only deduce that stat damage was not added, not that adding stat damage to balance them is going against the spirit of the power. With that philosophy, any change in the power is going against the spirit of the power.

The spirit of the power is to hit more often (i.e. increased accuracy). Making it a +2 to hit equivalent of a Melee Basic Attack does that. It gains +2 to hit. That's the spirit of the power, just like the spirit of Reaping Strike is to still do damage, even on a miss.


There is nothing really wrong with your house rule. It just kind of ignores the spirit of the power (accuracy). Players would want to use an accuracy power to help ensure that they hit and damage now, not to average less damage or to help ensure a hit in the future. What real good is an accuracy power that does less damage? Less average damage this round with your house rule to do more average damage next round is kind of backwards when a player wants to hit (and damage) now.
 


These powers are perfectly fine as they are written and I've been known to take them with both classes in the past. I take them because they ensure a hit. There is nothing more annoying then going up against the big bad and not being able to properly defend. For the ranger it assures Hunter's Quarry! Can you imagine if the rogue had a power like this? Everyone would take it to assure Backstab damage.
Two problems with this thinking:
1. Whether the fighter hits or misses, he can mark his target and set up Combat Challenge. And average damage calculations show Reaping Strike to be superior.
2. One way to think of Twin Strike is that you are rolling twice to hit one target. The math works out so this becomes akin to around a +3 bonus (not sure the exact average for rolling two d20s, but I know others on the board have done this). The odds are better with Twin Strike that you will apply your Hunter's Quarry damage.
 

2. One way to think of Twin Strike is that you are rolling twice to hit one target. The math works out so this becomes akin to around a +3 bonus (not sure the exact average for rolling two d20s, but I know others on the board have done this). The odds are better with Twin Strike that you will apply your Hunter's Quarry damage.

Actually, it's usually more than that. Suppose you have a 50% chance of hitting with one attack. Then if you make 2 attacks, you have a 75% chance of hitting with at least one - equivalent to a +5 bonus (25 percentage points). And plus, you have a 25% chance of hitting twice, compared to 0% if you just made one attack with a bonus.
 

Where are those feats from?

The Arena Fighting feats are from Dragon Magazine 368 and you can find them in the Compendium or through the Character Builder.

And rather than discussing if Twin Strike is better than Careful Attack, or Reaping Strike is better than Sure Strike (which have been done to death), I would really like to hear what new options open some interesting doors for Careful Attack and Sure Strike?

For instance, Is the dwarf battlerager in the first post a viable option with Sure Strike and Grudge Style? Or would he be better off just using Brash Strike?
 

Mengu:

Exotic Fighting Style: This works for level 1, but it stops working as you advance. But see below.

Grudge Style: This could work, particularly if your strength and wisdom start at the same level. If your dwarf fighter begins with something like 16/15/12/10/16/11 (I use standard array), then Grudge Style turns Sure Strike into a conditional +2 accuracy basic melee attack. But see below.

True Arrow Style: This is another one I've analyzed mathematically in previous discussions. It doesn't work. Twin Strike is still better.

Alright, now for the "But see below." stuff.

You can make a build that, at high levels, uses Careful Attack effectively. Just focus heavily on static damage bonuses. Get enough of them and its more important that you hit than it is that you get your strength modifier to damage. Its kind of hard to get enough static bonuses, unfortunately, but it is doable.

If I wanted to make a Fighter who showcased Careful Attack, I'd go with a Dwarf Fighter Pit Fighter using the array discussed above. I'd make sure he was wielding a superior weapon, and that his strength and wisdom kept pace with one another. Then I'd give him both the Grudge Style and the Exotic Fighting Style, and I'd advance his strength and wisdom together, using a two handed weapon that focuses on lots of wisdom, like a polearm. The end result would be someone who, whenever he was hit, could retaliate with a +2 attack that deals 1[W]+wisdom+wisdom+profiency, where wisdom was equal to strength. Basically, I'd be getting +2 attack and +strength damage whenever I was hit, since strength and wisdom were equal. I think thats very playable.

That being said, this is kind of an edge case power, and I don't think its worth using if you aren't going to really take the time to do it right.
 

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