re-revised Psion

[Thanee]

Hiyas!

Since I am not very happy about the balance aspects of the XPH, as some of you might have noticed by now , I thought about how to tone down the psion to keep him more in line with the PHB stuff. Comments welcome!

Power Points / Day:

1st 3
2nd 4
3rd 7
4th 11
5th 16
6th 24
7th 32
8th 44
9th 56
10th 72
11th 88
12th 108
13th 128
14th 152
15th 176
16th 204
17th 232
18th 264
19th 294
20th 326

Note: This is simply the wizard spells per day table translated into power points per day (ignoring specialization bonuses). It will result in psions having less powers per day than wizards, given the fact, that they need to augment them quite a bit. In exchange they have the added flexibility which allows them to manifest much more high level powers (augmented or not).

Powers Known (Maximum Level):

1st 3 (1st)
2nd 4 (1st)
3rd 5 (1st)
4th 7 (2nd)
5th 9 (2nd)
6th 10 (3rd)
7th 12 (3rd)
8th 13 (4th)
9th 15 (4th)
10th 16 (5th)
11th 17 (5th)
12th 18 (6th)
13th 19 (6th)
14th 20 (7th)
15th 21 (7th)
16th 22 (8th)
17th 23 (8th)
18th 24 (9th)
19th 25 (9th)
20th 26 (9th)

Note: Quite a few less, since many of the low level powers scale in level and are thus additional high level powers. Also many of their powers are 2-in-1 or even better compared to spells, thus it seems appropriate to have psions learn fewer total powers.

Stat dependancy:

Psions derive extra PP / Day from a high Intelligence score, however, the save DC of their powers is based on their Charisma score.

Note: This actually sounds worse than it really is. It shifts the primary stat over to Charisma and while a super-high Intelligence is surely nice, you don't really need it. It keeps the extreme flexibility in check somewhat, since the bonus PP / Day are more costly that way.

Bonus Feats:

Psions can choose only from the following bonus feats: any Metapsionic feat, any Psionic Item Creation feat, Expanded Knowledge, Psicrystal Affinity, Improved Psicrystal, Psicrystal Containment, Psionic Meditation, Psionic Talent.

Note: More similar to the wizard (and still quite a bonus compared to the sorcerer). Expanded Knowledge and Psionic Talent are there to limit the impact of the reduced PP / Power tables, Psionic Meditation to allow them to keep up with the arcane casters in terms of metapsionic/metamagic usage.

Changes to existing Feats / Powers:

Expanded Knowledge: The character can only choose powers he could normally learn.
Power Penetration / Greater Power Penetration: +2 / +4 bonus to defeat power resistance as long as the character is psionically focused.
Psionic Endowment / Greater Psionic Endowment: +1 / +2 bonus to DC of all powers of a chosen discipline as long as the character is psionically focused.
Dispel Psionics: Augmentation: +6 PP to increase the maximum bonus from manifester level to +20.
Greater Metamorphosis: HD limit is equal to manifester level (max 25 HD), not twice that much.

Note: I'm sure this list is not finished yet.

The following Feats / Powers / Items are unavailable:

- Metamorphic Transfer
- Quicken Power
- Schism
- Psionatrix of <discipline>
- Torc of power preservation

Note: Also thought about Psionic Meditation, but since the really bad thing about that one is the use of Quicken Power only, it seems more reasonable to do away with that one (no spontaneously quickened spells... no spontaneously quickened powers), and it allows more decent use of metapsionics, which are then in line with the sorcerer (full-round action), and since the psion has bonus feats, it's also fair enough, that he has to choose a feat to get to the same level here.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Arkhandus]

Looks sound Thanee, I'll just suggest a few minor changes..... Let psionics have either Quicken Power or Schism so they can match the number of spells per round that a wizard or other spellcaster could manage..... Just eliminate one of those two abilities. Schism was weaker than Haste to begin with, and it had some limitations and drawbacks too, so I don't think it needs to be removed or changed in 3.5. Besides that....
Change Greater Psionic Endowment to grant a separate +1 DC than Psionic Endowment, so that they stack when psionically focused, but have the GPE bonus be active all the time (like Spell Focus) so psionic PCs can at least be a little closer to spellcasters in power. Do something similar with Greater Power Penetration, or have both Power Penetration and Greater Power Penetration still grant half their benefit when unfocused, giving the full benefit when focused.

 

[Thanee]

Thanks for your comments!
.

Let psionics have either Quicken Power or Schism so they can match the number of spells per round that a wizard or other spellcaster could manage.....

You mean, like the sorcerer? Done exactly that!

Sorry, but you cannot compare spontaneous quicken with prepared quicken.
.

Change Greater Psionic Endowment to grant a separate +1 DC than Psionic Endowment, so that they stack when psionically focused, but have the GPE bonus be active all the time (like Spell Focus) so psionic PCs can at least be a little closer to spellcasters in power. Do something similar with Greater Power Penetration, or have both Power Penetration and Greater Power Penetration still grant half their benefit when unfocused, giving the full benefit when focused.

Hmm... I actually think that while it doesn't sound like it, the above will result in a pretty permanent bonus. Psionic Meditation is a must-have feat for psionic characters and with that it shouldn't be much of a problem to stay psionically focused.

It's a bit along the lines of the psicrystal feat. You don't have to take it to keep up with the arcane casters in that area, but if you do, your abilities are about the same. This is a bonus for psions, because they have more choice. The little disadvantage that remains is what they pay for this bonus, so to say.

However, thinking about that, Psionic Meditation should probably become a bonus feat choice for psions, too.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Hardhead]

Hiyas!

Since I am not very happy about the balance aspects of the XPH, as some of you might have noticed by now , I thought about how to tone down the psion to keep him more in line with the PHB stuff. Comments welcome!

I agree that Psions are powerful in 3.5 (up around Cleric level). But I really don't know why you'd want to play one if they were using your version.

Power Points / Day:

1st 3
2nd 4
3rd 7
4th 11
5th 16
6th 24
7th 32
8th 44
9th 56
10th 72
11th 88
12th 108
13th 128
14th 152
15th 176
16th 204
17th 232
18th 264
19th 294
20th 326

Note: This is simply the wizard spells per day table translated into power points per day (ignoring specialization bonuses). It will result in psions having less powers per day than wizards, given the fact, that they need to augment them quite a bit. In exchange they have the added flexibility which allows them to manifest much more high level powers (augmented or not).

Powers Known (Maximum Level):

1st 3 (1st)
2nd 4 (1st)
3rd 5 (1st)
4th 7 (2nd)
5th 9 (2nd)
6th 10 (3rd)
7th 12 (3rd)
8th 13 (4th)
9th 15 (4th)
10th 16 (5th)
11th 17 (5th)
12th 18 (6th)
13th 19 (6th)
14th 20 (7th)
15th 21 (7th)
16th 22 (8th)
17th 23 (8th)
18th 24 (9th)
19th 25 (9th)
20th 26 (9th)

Note: Quite a few less, since many of the low level powers scale in level and are thus additional high level powers. Also many of their powers are 2-in-1 or even better compared to spells, thus it seems appropriate to have psions learn fewer total powers.

OK, so they learn powers slowly, at the Sorcerer level, but get few per day, at the wizard level. Wow, you really hate Psions don't you.

Seriously, I can understand giving them fewer PP per day, or making them learn powers more slowly, but not both. They get, essentially, the worst of both worlds. The only thing they have going for them is that they can burn all their PP on high level powers. That's great, if you're only going to be facing one or two encounters per day, but in a normal adventure, where you have to make your PP count, it's not that much of an advantage. Add to that fact, if they want to make their powers last, and use lower level powers over the course of the day, they don't get the advantage that wizards do (i.e., their lower level powers scale with their level, like Fireball).

Under your system, Psions will be manifesting powers weaker than sorcerers, probably less times per day than the wizard (because of their double stat dependency, below) with no "auto-scale" powers to help them keep up damage-wise.

Hey, I remember when Psions did that before! It was called 3.0 Psionics, and aside from a few broken combos, they sucked.

Stat dependancy:

Psions derive extra PP / Day from a high Intelligence score, however, the save DC of their powers is based on their Charisma score.

Note: This actually sounds worse than it really is. It shifts the primary stat over to Charisma and while a super-high Intelligence is surely nice, you don't really need it. It keeps the extreme flexibility in check somewhat, since the bonus PP / Day are more costly that way.

Personally, I'd do it the other way around. But anyway, while I like the concept, it's just way too much considering what else you've done to them.

Bonus Feats:

Psions can choose only from the following bonus feats: any Metapsionic feat, any Psionic Item Creation feat, Expanded Knowledge, Psicrystal Affinity, Improved Psicrystal, Psicrystal Containment, Psionic Meditation, Psionic Talent.

Note: More similar to the wizard (and still quite a bonus compared to the sorcerer). Expanded Knowledge and Psionic Talent are there to limit the impact of the reduced PP / Power tables, Psionic Meditation to allow them to keep up with the arcane casters in terms of metapsionic/metamagic usage.

A bit better than the wizard's bonus feats... except of course that now Psions are worse than the wizard in all other categories.

Changes to existing Feats / Powers:

Expanded Knowledge: The character can only choose powers he could normally learn.

I'd allow the Wilder to pick up specialist powers, personally.

Power Penetration / Greater Power Penetration: +2 / +4 bonus to defeat power resistance as long as the character is psionically focused.

Psionic Endowment / Greater Psionic Endowment: +1 / +2 bonus to DC of all powers of a chosen discipline as long as the character is psionically focused.

Why the change? I think the other way was nicely different, and balanced. This is probably a slight power up for them (except for Psionic Mediation builds, for whom this is a power down).

Dispel Psionics: Augmentation: +6 PP to increase the maximum bonus from manifester level to +20.

This'll probably be fixed in errata anyway.

The following Feats / Powers / Items are unavailable:

- Metamorphic Transfer
- Quicken Power
- Schism

Schism is powerful, no doubt about it, but with limiting Expanded Knowledge to powers you could normally learn, it's probably not that bad. Still, for Telepaths, it's probably too good.

However, I certainly don't see the need to get rid of both it and quicken. I mean, really. Why can Wizards and Sorcerers cast two spells per round but Psions can't manifest two powers?

- Psionatrix of <discipline>

These are certainly balanced considering the mild benefit and the very high cost.

- Torc of power preservation

Don't know that one.

Note: Also thought about Psionic Meditation, but since the really bad thing about that one is the use of Quicken Power only, it seems more reasonable to do away with that one (no spontaneously quickened spells... no spontaneously quickened powers), and it allows more decent use of metapsionics, which are then in line with the sorcerer (full-round action), and since the psion has bonus feats, it's also fair enough, that he has to choose a feat to get to the same level here.

I don't understand why you think Psionic Meditation is too good with Quicken Power but not the other Metapsionic feats.

In the end, I think you've gone waaaay to far. With you build, a Psion will have to be miserly with his PP, manifesting lower level stuff to be able to use his powers all day, and without the auto-scaling spells of his arcane counterparts, he's going to be waaaaay behind them in damage output.

3.5 psions are powerful. Not broken powerful, but "high end" powerful. Your psins are pretty much 3.0 psions in terms of power level (i.e, somewhere beneath the bard and paladin).

 

[Thanee]

A few comments on that one.

Your point on the PP and Power reduction is surely valid. While the PP table isn't that much worse than the one in the book, really, that will be considered.

The big problem with their flexibility is, that at higher and higher levels, the disadvantage of being able to manifest fewer total powers lessens, while the advantage of manifesting more of ones highest level powers increases even further.

With the reduced number of powers, they will still end up with a better selection than the sorcerer, btw, since they can use all their low level powers to good effect at higher levels, which the sorcerer won't be able to.

Penetration / Endowment: Why the change... to have it more in line with the PHB. Otherwise they are slightly too powerful (still having the disadvantage that they don't work together, which also gets removed here) with Psionic Meditation (which psions basically get for free considering their bonus feats - and you have to compare those with the sorcerer, not the wizard, because of the spontaneous casting/manifesting!) and too weak without. They also simply feel better as passive abilities compared to active IMHO.

Psionatrix: Stuff that adds to DC got removed in 3.5. All stuff, but focus feats. This one has to go, too.

Torc: Look it up and think about it for a moment.

About Quicken / Schism: Show me one other spontaneous caster or spontaneous casting ability, which works with Quicken! There is none... that's why. With Quicken + Psionic Meditation or with Schism they can do it every round... with both even twice!

Summary: I honestly don't think this is going too far, maybe the PP reduction (because of the augmentation issues, altho that's partially balanced by the extreme flexibility, which must have a price somewhere, therefore psions must have a significantly lower number of manifestations per day compared to a sorcerer - they still can do more of the important high level stuff anyways, because of the flexibility). I actually think, that even with all those changes, psions will still be at the top end. They will have some distinct and noteable disadvantages to counter their immense advantages, however. They cannot be equal (or similar, since they are working quite a bit different) to arcane casters in every way and have tons of advantages in addition. That's unbalanced.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Seravin]

First let me say that I've followed your recent XPH threads with interest. I haven't always agreed with you, but your position has always been thought out and articulate.

However I have to agree with Hardhead, and say it looks like you've gone a bit too far the other way with the PP and Power Known reductions. One or the other might be fine but not both. I think I'm starting to like moving the their highest spell slot gains to the even levels though.

I'm not a fan of splitting the Stat Dependancies in general either - if only because none of the other core classes have to worry about it for their spell casting. For flavor, I suppose it's all right but I think it's just going too far considering everything else.

Concerning Expanded Knowledge - I would open it up to all the lists as before and if you have a problem with psion's expanding their power's known beyond their own lists, just take it off the bonus feat list. I like Hardhead's idea of opening it up for the Wilder, but I dislike making a feat work differently for two different classes.

Finally, Greater Metamorphisis -
edit: I had forgotten about the 3.5 PHB errata to Shapechange. In light of that, your rule makes perfect sense.

Those would be my only comments.
I still haven't been convinced that the psions as presented are too overpowered though. I'm hoping I can get one of my players to run a psion so I can get some actual playtesting done. Better yet, I'd like to run one just to take it out for a spin.

 

[hazmat]

Thanee have you used the current psion?

I also haven't seen much talk about the wilder. It seems to me that he psion is closer to the wizard while the wilder is closer to the sorceror.

 

[iceifur]

Power Points / Day:

1st 3
2nd 4
3rd 7
4th 11
5th 16
6th 24
7th 32
8th 44
9th 56
10th 72
11th 88
12th 108
13th 128
14th 152
15th 176
16th 204
17th 232
18th 264
19th 294
20th 326

Note: This is simply the wizard spells per day table translated into power points per day (ignoring specialization bonuses).

A quick question first, followed by a supposition if true:

1. Has the cost of powers stayed the same in the new book? You know: 0 lvl= certain number of times / day, 1st=1, 2nd=3, 3rd=5, etc.?

If so, then at 20th level your psion would, going by the wizard progression of spells per day, have 324 points (9^2 * 4) instead of 326 [(9^2 * 4)+2], would it not? I'm not nit-picking, just asking (I haven't picked up the new book yet).

Looks good so far. Keep up the good work.

-B-

 

[Thanee]

Thanee have you used the current psion?

No. We had a 3.0 psion with all updates (the one the XPH psion is based on) in a long-running campaign, tho. The updated 3.0 psion was more than equal to the arcane casters already (while without the updates the psion was inferior as pretty much everyone can tell you).

The XPH one is like twice as good (slightly exaggerated ). All the updated abilities have been improved, many individual powers have been improved, scaling (now augmentation) has been drastically improved, power access has been drastically improved, ... what has been put in to balance all these improvements? Nothing!

And again, this is not based on the inferior 3.0 PsiHB psion, but the one with If Thoughts Could Kill and Mindscape stuff applied, which most people who have run it also stated to be much better than the original one and easily equal to the 3.0 arcane casters.

The arcane casters (all spellcasters) have been toned down in 3.5 - the psion has been further empowered!

I also haven't seen much talk about the wilder. It seems to me that he psion is closer to the wizard while the wilder is closer to the sorceror.

That's what I think is the big misconception, which led to the imbalance here!

The psion is not closer to the wizard. The psion is the sorcerer and gets almost all the advantages that the wizard has plus the much more advantegeous (hence the big difference between sorcerer and wizard) spontaneous manifesting ability!

The wilder takes this a step further.

I only comment on the psion (leaving out the others, sure some of the stuff would have to be applied to them, too), because the psion is so similar to the core classes in function and thus easily compareable.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

1. Has the cost of powers stayed the same in the new book? You know: 0 lvl= certain number of times / day, 1st=1, 2nd=3, 3rd=5, etc.?

There are no 0th level powers (detect psionics is 1st level). That's why I added 0.5 points per 0th level slot.

Bye
Thanee