Re-using Powers

[Rex Blunder]

I agree wholeheartedly, but it seems like the need to alleviate such tedium is one the player would want to make, but the current 4e system forces them to make the choice because of Neo-Vancian fire-and-forget mechanics.

I think that you can't trust the players to do what's most fun. Many of them will do what does the most damage, and then complain about the tedium. Look at Jason Buhlmann complaining that there was always an optimal at-will power to use, so he never used his other ones.

 

[malcolm_n]

I think that you can't trust the players to do what's most fun. Many of them will do what does the most damage, and then complain about the tedium. Look at Jason Buhlmann complaining that there was always an optimal at-will power to use, so he never used his other ones.

If you can't trust players to have fun, why play? The majority of my friends who play dnd often give up the obvious "I charge and hit it with full power attack because it has low ac" to cooler things like "It's running away? I throw my Axe!"

 

[keterys]

What people think they want and what people actually want are very often not the same thing.

The game should encourage play that is the most fun and not penalize people for doing interesting things.

 

[Rykaar]

I think that you can't trust the players to do what's most fun. Many of them will do what does the most damage, and then complain about the tedium. Look at Jason Buhlmann complaining that there was always an optimal at-will power to use, so he never used his other ones.

If the at-will is generally more optimal than an encounter or daily power, that's a real concern. If true, it seems like that's a fault with the selection and usefulness of the powers themselves.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

If you can't trust players to have fun, why play? The majority of my friends who play dnd often give up the obvious "I charge and hit it with full power attack because it has low ac" to cooler things like "It's running away? I throw my Axe!"

Maybe your players do. Mine do not. If they have a "best" option, they'll use it...every round.

I've seen them roll their eyes at people who attempted to do weird things because they were "cool".

Like the 3rd round in a row the trip specialist attempted to trip the Huge creature with the 30 strength and failed when everyone in the group realized that he could hit its AC on a 5 if he would just attack it instead of attempting trips.

They like it when their best option changes from round to round so they always feel they are doing the best thing they can each round. The best way to do that is to simply remove it as an option with game rules.

 

[Rykaar]

Maybe your players do. Mine do not. If they have a "best" option, they'll use it...every round.

I've seen them roll their eyes at people who attempted to do weird things because they were "cool".

What I find interesting here is that on the one hand, the claim of 4e is that combat is much more dynamic, much less static, both in terms of physical movement and in terms of options.

If the concern with being able to reuse powers is that they'll get "stale" through continual re-use, it seems the only reason the combats are more dynamic is you're not allowed to do the same thing twice.

Put another way, if the reason for using a power creatively is you have no other power to use, it seems like you're setting up non-creative battles and expecting players to provide creative approaches to fighting them.

If you have a choice of two powers, one that shifts the target two squares and does standard damage, or one that does standard + an extra die, there's no reason to use the former power if the shift doesn't accomplish anything useful. If it knocks the beastie into a pit or off a cliff, or into the fighter's threat zone so he can hold it there, you have a reason for using the shift attack even if both powers are at your disposal.

But again, this is all premised on multiple, interesting, useful powers. If there's only a couple good ones and the rest are junk, that's a problem, but a different problem than one of reuse.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

If the concern with being able to reuse powers is that they'll get "stale" through continual re-use, it seems the only reason the combats are more dynamic is you're not allowed to do the same thing twice.

Put another way, if the reason for using a power creatively is you have no other power to use, it seems like you're setting up non-creative battles and expecting players to provide creative approaches to fighting them.

True, however, name a way using the d20 system to foster a combat where you have a number of different options without making one of them mechanically better than the rest of them.

Remember, you have to use the d20 plus bonus hits defense when it rolls high enough as your mechanic for all attacks to stay true to the d20 system.

The thing is, you might be able to balance a plus to hit with a plus to damage. But beyond that? Is it better to get +2 to hit or have an attack immobilize an enemy? It is better to push an enemy a square back or get +2 to hit?

If you have a choice of two powers, one that shifts the target two squares and does standard damage, or one that does standard + an extra die, there's no reason to use the former power if the shift doesn't accomplish anything useful. If it knocks the beastie into a pit or off a cliff, or into the fighter's threat zone so he can hold it there, you have a reason for using the shift attack even if both powers are at your disposal.

Given any list of powers you are likely to see many different opinions on which one is the best one. Some people think that the idea of slowing your enemy down to a speed of 2 is the greatest thing ever and will use an attack to slow an enemy every round. Some think that the idea of attacking two enemies is WAY cooler than hitting 1 for double damage.

Each person picks whet THEY think is the best option and use it. There's no way of making "equal" options unless the options are identical.

I haven't yet found a way of getting players to use diverse options other than giving them no choice or changing the circumstances SO much from round to round that the clearly best choice changes.

 

[Harshax]

This has probably been suggested before, but I wonder how broken or imbalanced it would be to allow encounter and daily powers to be re-used, up to the encounter/daily/utility slot limit. (i.e. more like the 3e sorcerer than wizard, to use caster examples)

I could see doing this is campaigns that aren't designed to span the Heroic/Paragon/Epic tiers of play. Not every DM is going to want to run a game that ultimate ends with a BBEG in the Abyss.

I chuckle when I say this, but if you want to play a low-powered game (Heroic Play), you could give characters extra uses of their powers instead of opening a Paragon path for them to pick up.

 

[Rykaar]

True, however, name a way using the d20 system to foster a combat where you have a number of different options without making one of them mechanically better than the rest of them.

Remember, you have to use the d20 plus bonus hits defense when it rolls high enough as your mechanic for all attacks to stay true to the d20 system.

Again, if one option is always mechanically the best, combat after combat, then how dynamic and varied is combat itself? As a DM, if you present the party with a situation where they can approach it exactly the same way, time after time, the problem isn't that they have a standard response, it's that you've provided them with a standard encounter.

Given any list of powers you are likely to see many different opinions on which one is the best one. Some people think that the idea of slowing your enemy down to a speed of 2 is the greatest thing ever and will use an attack to slow an enemy every round. Some think that the idea of attacking two enemies is WAY cooler than hitting 1 for double damage.

Each person picks whet THEY think is the best option and use it. There's no way of making "equal" options unless the options are identical.

Vary the types of creatures. Vary the numbers. Vary the directions by which the party is attacked, or from which they attack the enemy. Vary the terrain. Vary environmental effects. If you provide varied conditions for battle, I'm still having trouble seeing why the PC's will always use the same tactics.

I haven't yet found a way of getting players to use diverse options other than giving them no choice or changing the circumstances SO much from round to round that the clearly best choice changes.

I'm not saying round by round, but rather encounter by encounter. Yes, within a particular combat, one option may be clearly the best choice. That's why I initially argued for being able to reuse a power! But my followup to that is vary the combats and hopefully the players won't get bored since they'll be able to do different stuff across a day's adventure.