Reach, Large Characters, and AoO

[Zenbryo]

My players and I have been trying to tussle this problem out, but I admit to being still confused on the whole topic.

What grants a character with reach (say a Large or Huge character with a polearm) Attacks of Opportunity? If he plants himself in the middle of a melee, does he get an AoO anytime anyone moves ever within his reach? That seems a little crazy to me. (One AoO per round notwithstanding)

Let's say Player 1 is Huge, and has a polearm. He's in the middle of a real cluster of enemies and players. If Goblin 1 (who is 30 ft away from Player 1) moves to 20 ft away (from Player 1) in order to attack Player 2 (who is 15 ft away from Player 1) does Player 1 get an AoO? Even though moving in to attack Player 2 doesn't grant Player 2 an AoO?

It just seems strange to me that provoking an action that doesn't require an AoO would grant another character an AoO. I figure you either are in the condition of "provoking" or you are not. If Player 2 doesn't get an AoO, it seems like Player 1 shouldn't.

Please let me know if I'm totally jumbled on this one, I admit readily to being confused.

 

[Persiflage]

OK, don't worry: it's not hard.

Firstly, it's not moving *into* someone's threat squares that causes the AoO, it's *leaving* a square that someone threatens.

So if Player 1 threatens the square that the enemy starts out in, the enemy provokes an attack of opportunity for leaving it unless he leaves it in a special way: taking a five-foot step, or "withdrawing". The "withdraw" full-round action means you get to treat the square you start out it as not threatened by anyone.

In the example you gave, assuming neither the enemy nor Player 2 have reach, the enemy wouldn't provoke an attack of opportunity from Player 2 because he isn't *leaving* any squares threatened by Player 2. However, he is leaving a square threatened by Player 1.

Secondly, actions that provoke AoO's are not "conditions" so they don't apply universally; it's not only possible but very likely that an action can provoke an AoO will do so from one player but not another. An attack of opportunity can only be taken if you threaten the character at the point at which they take the action: whether that be "leaving a square you threaten" or "casting a spell".

Look at it this way. If the enemy threatened by Player 1 but not by Player 2 cast a spell, you wouldn't expect Player 2 to get an attack of opportunity against him, would you? No, because Player 2 doesn't threaten him when the action is taken. Player 2 doesn't get to run up and have a free hit on his turn because he wasn't close enough to take the opportunity. "Attacks of opportunity" are just that: they're attacks you get for free because someone has done something that means they can't defend themselves properly for an instant, granting you an "opportunity" to hit them.

The most important thing to remember about your example though is what I said to start with: it's leaving a threatened square that provokes the AoO, not entering it. Otherwise, nobody could ever close to melee range with an opponent with similar reach without provoking a free attack!

Hope that helps

 

[frankthedm]

Let's say Player 1 is Huge, and has a polearm.

How? Few ways let a player become huge, and it would be best if the DM does not allow them untill the DM is very familiar with the rules for AOO.

Psi warrior makes it depressing easy, but other than that, Enlarge Person won't work on any large PCs since those almost never are humanoid type. A Large Caster with a crippling HD and LA could do it with Righteous Might. But never forget "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack. "

He's in the middle of a real cluster of enemies and players. If Goblin 1 (who is 30 ft away from Player 1) moves to 20 ft away (from Player 1) in order to attack Player 2 (who is 15 ft away from Player 1) does Player 1 get an AoO? Even though moving in to attack Player 2 doesn't grant Player 2 an AoO?

yes Player 1 gets an AOO for the gobbo walking through the area the player is threatening

It just seems strange to me that provoking an action that doesn't require an AoO would grant another character an AoO. I figure you either are in the condition of "provoking" or you are not. If Player 2 doesn't get an AoO, it seems like Player 1 shouldn't.

The rule system lets someone ENTER someone else's threatened square so two combatants with equal reach could trade blows without AOOs being drawn. Leaving a threatened square causes the AOO to be drawn from who is threatening that square.

Please let me know if I'm totally jumbled on this one, I admit readily to being confused.

Think of each threatened square like Velcro, easy to connect, harder to pull away.

EDIT
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/188958-reach.html
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/215579-medium-character-huge-bastard-sword.html

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/8269/bigpsyckmountff4.gif



http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/6338/gargreachwq6.gif

 

[Zenbryo]

How? Few ways let a player become huge, and it would be best if the DM does not allow them untill the DM is very familiar with the rules for AOO.

As for how the big fellow got so huge, I decided to run a monster game. He's an Ogre Psychic Warrior. He basically built his character on reach and AoO, so I really don't want to screw him. But, at the moment, some of it confuses me.

In the example you gave, assuming neither the enemy nor Player 2 have reach, the enemy wouldn't provoke an attack of opportunity from Player 2 because he isn't *leaving* any squares threatened by Player 2. However, he is leaving a square threatened by Player 1.

So Goblin 1 ENTERING a Player 1 threatened square to attack Player 2 shouldn't provoke an AoO from anyone, but if Goblin 1 MOVES THROUGH any of Player 1's threatened squares, than Player 1 gets a shot?

Or, an easier example: Two Regular, Medium sized players with no reach are standing side-by-side. We'll call them Hank and Scott. Now, if Goblin 2 moves into a square to attack Hank, which also is a square Scott threatens, does Scott get an AoO? I don't think he does, right?

If the enemy threatened by Player 1 but not by Player 2 cast a spell, you wouldn't expect Player 2 to get an attack of opportunity against him, would you? No, because Player 2 doesn't threaten him when the action is taken.

Well, no, of course not. I understand the whole "threatened square thing," it just seems odd to me, from a logic standpoint, that if Goblin 1 is approaching Player 2 with his spear at the ready, engaging in combat (which is what AoOs AREN'T about, they're for characters taking reckless action in combat), Player 2 doesn't get an AoO.

This makes sense, as the Goblin is ready, willing, and able to fight. It just seems odd to me that Player 1, standing essentially BEHIND Player 2 gets a shot at the same Goblin who is wading into combat, weapon at the ready, if Player 2 doesn't get that same opportunity. I mean, in theory, the Goblin sees Player 1, understands his huge polearm-y reach, etc.

I'm totally cool with being wrong Rules-As-Written wise, I just don't understand the strategic side of it.

 

[Vegepygmy]

What grants a character with reach (say a Large or Huge character with a polearm) Attacks of Opportunity? If he plants himself in the middle of a melee, does he get an AoO anytime anyone moves ever within his reach? That seems a little crazy to me. (One AoO per round notwithstanding)

In actual play, the soft cover provided by one's enemies and allies tends to block a lot of those Attacks of Opportunity, because you can't make an Attack of Opportunity against an opponent who has cover relative to you.

People often forget this when dealing with opponents that have reach.

 

[Spatula]

So Goblin 1 ENTERING a Player 1 threatened square to attack Player 2 shouldn't provoke an AoO from anyone

Depends on where the goblin was moving from (and how it moved there). If it was leaving anyone's threatened square to get there, and was not using a 5-foot step, that would provoke an AoO.

Tumble also avoids the AoO, so that's handy against creatures with reach.

but if Goblin 1 MOVES THROUGH any of Player 1's threatened squares, than Player 1 gets a shot?

Correct, although I think "leaves a threatened square" would be more accurate.

Or, an easier example: Two Regular, Medium sized players with no reach are standing side-by-side. We'll call them Hank and Scott. Now, if Goblin 2 moves into a square to attack Hank, which also is a square Scott threatens, does Scott get an AoO? I don't think he does, right?

Again, it depends on where the goblin came from.

Moving into a threatened square is not a problem. Leaving one without using a 5-foot step or the tumble skill is. Imagine a human with a sword vs a giant with a club (10' reach). The human starts 30' away and approaches the giant. When the human enters the square 10' away from the giant, nothing happens - he is entering a threatened square, but came there from an un-threatened one. Unfortunately, the human can't reach the giant yet, so he has to move 5' closer. In doing so, he is leaving a threatened square (the giant gets an AoO) and entering a new one (which means nothing). And the giant has now taken his AoO for the round, so the human or anyone else can safely run rings around the giant until its turn comes up again.