Reach out and touch...

[wlmartin]

I am creating a new build (Avenger) and am loving the idea of Reach.
I have avoided Reach Weapons before because for what they gain in utility they lacked in + to hit and damage.

I favored Brutal Weapons (to improve the average of attacks whilst still often getting quite high dice) but for an Avenger, someone who needs to limit the enemies that are around him, Reach seems ideal.

I can see it now, My guy is surrounded by 3 guys (all to his front NE, N and NW positions) and his OOE is stood amongst them. He makes his movement to shift one step back and jabs his OoE with a Reach Weapon... love it!

Also add to the fact that you can aim your Reach Weapon through an allies space and also the kitch factor that not everyone uses one so it really throws new tactical ideas onto the gameboard.

My problem is as follows

Which Reach Weapon do I pick?

I can either
a) Go for Glaive, Halberd or Longspear.. Since the average on them works out the same, the Halberd/Longspear are the clear choice due to having a higher range damage and I hear there are more feats that work with polearms than those with heavy blades so it seems that Longspear is the best mundane pick
b) Go for a Greatspear or Spiked Chain. The only benefit here would be to gain an extra +1 to hit and if that is the case I may as well use the same feat to take +1 expertise in the choice above if it is that important

I suppose this choice is often made easier when you have a class / race that has features focusing on one of the other (ie taking a feat that gives you bonuses to heavy blades or polearms) but with a Deva Avenger (which if need be I could switch to a Githerzi Avenger to take a feat and get advantage of the extra Heavy Blade benefits) I am a bit stuck just with the Deva.

Does anyone have any solid experience with Reach weapons (ideally using them with an Avenger) that could offer some advise?

Also... Can you impose reach at a diagonal adjacent opponent?

Say you are stood on a 3 x 3 platform, going 1,2,3 on the first row, 4,5,6 on the next and 7,8,9 on the last.

If you are at position (8) and your opponents are at position 1,2,3.. Whilst I would figure it is obvious you can attack enemy (2) can you in fact attack enemy (1) & (3).

I am unsure on this since if I was in square (5) I could attack any of the 3 enemies but being a step back I am unsure if I can

 

[Nullzone]

One slight problem: Using a weapon at reach completely precludes the use of your Oath of Enmity. You have to be adjacent to your Oath target to use the feature.

Ideal weapon for an Avenger is often something that can 'crit fish'; since you're rolling 2 dice for every hit on your OoE, extending your crit range and getting extra attacks dramatically increases the chance of making a critical hit. This means you want to aim for something with the Axe, Heavy Blade, or Light Blade property, as these can all support Jagged or Rending weapons.

To answer your mechanical question, yes you can attack rows 1, 2, and 3. Think of your weapon range in "burst" sense; melee range is typically burst 1, but a reach weapon can hit burst 2.

 

[wlmartin]

One slight problem: Using a weapon at reach completely precludes the use of your Oath of Enmity. You have to be adjacent to your Oath target to use the feature.

Ideal weapon for an Avenger is often something that can 'crit fish'; since you're rolling 2 dice for every hit on your OoE, extending your crit range and getting extra attacks dramatically increases the chance of making a critical hit. This means you want to aim for something with the Axe, Heavy Blade, or Light Blade property, as these can all support Jagged or Rending weapons.

To answer your mechanical question, yes you can attack rows 1, 2, and 3. Think of your weapon range in "burst" sense; melee range is typically burst 1, but a reach weapon can hit burst 2.

[facepalm]

There is that much text in the OoE power that I completely missed that.
I got that I need to have no enemies adjacent to me but being adjacent to it never factored into my brain.

LOL - there goes my plan to kick some serious evil booty!

The burst analogy makes a lot more sense, thank you... quite logical when you think about it.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Question: if you MCEd into Monk to get the FoB feature, could you use that to attack adjacent foes targeted by your OoE while using your Reach weapon to keep others away?

I mean, I'm sure it wouldn't be ideal in damage dealing terms, but does it work mechanically?

 

[Dedekind]

[facepalm]

I made a fighter with reach one time based on an at-will that let you pull monsters around. Errata changed the power to having to be adjacent. Doh!

 

[Nullzone]

Question: if you MCEd into Monk to get the FoB feature, could you use that to attack adjacent foes targeted by your OoE while using your Reach weapon to keep others away?

I mean, I'm sure it wouldn't be ideal in damage dealing terms, but does it work mechanically?

I'm not sure I understand the question. FoB is Melee 1, so that isn't affected by a reach weapon at all. And Oath of Enmity just lets you roll two attack dice to hit, whereas FoB is just a small amount of auto damage. What are the two supposed to do in conjunction?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm not sure I understand the question. FoB is Melee 1, so that isn't affected by a reach weapon at all. And Oath of Enmity just lets you roll two attack dice to hit, whereas FoB is just a small amount of auto damage. What are the two supposed to do in conjunction?

Using FoB with an unarmed strike while using the Reach weapon to back other foes off.

 

[Nullzone]

Using FoB with an unarmed strike while using the Reach weapon to back other foes off.

Again, how does one relate to the other? Oath of Enmity only works with attack rolls on the Oathed target.

I don't mean to repeat myself, I'm still just not sure what the objective or intent here is

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The purpose of the Reach weapon is to keep non-OoE foes away from the Avenger, so he can get full utility of hie OoE, right?

If Reach weapons cannot strike adjacent targets (I don't know- haven't even looked at the Reach rules since I'm playing a Warlock), then a Reach-weapon equipped Avenger needs a way to deal damage up close while still using the Reach weapon to keep others at bay. Monk's FoB would seem to be an answer: either unarmed or with the Reach weapon, Monk attacks generally ignore weapon properties, so a Monk FoB attack with a reach weapon would still work close in.

if they can strike adjacent targets, then there is no issue with using a Reach weapon at all: use the Reach property against those you wish to keep at bay, don't use it against your OoE foe.

 

[wlmartin]

The purpose of the Reach weapon is to keep non-OoE foes away from the Avenger, so he can get full utility of hie OoE, right?

If Reach weapons cannot strike adjacent targets (I don't know- haven't even looked at the Reach rules since I'm playing a Warlock), then a Reach-weapon equipped Avenger needs a way to deal damage up close while still using the Reach weapon to keep others at bay. Monk's FoB would seem to be an answer: either unarmed or with the Reach weapon, Monk attacks generally ignore weapon properties, so a Monk FoB attack with a reach weapon would still work close in.

if they can strike adjacent targets, then there is no issue with using a Reach weapon at all: use the Reach property against those you wish to keep at bay, don't use it against your OoE foe.

I thought my idea to use a Reach Avenger was a good one before reading the fine print LOL - With Reach I imagine Avengers would be hearing the "Its broken" cry a lot more than they do already

I was toying between using a Censure of Retribution and Censure of Pursuit Builds, I was falling into the trap of thinking CoR is the better one but after doing some research (mostly on the WotC forums) I found out that CoP is far stronger.

Many people think that the Censure ability is the Class Feature and get trapped into trying to pop it, but the consensus from those that play Avengers is that if you are getting the ability you are doing wrong - its a consolation prize for not getting OoE twin attack.

Also there are some great tactics discussed for utilizing Avenger Powers in ways I didnt think of, you end up flipping about the place like a Jack Rabbit


All I can say is, I thought OoE was fantastic

Then I met Furys Advance for the first time today

Its only 1[W] (no ABILITY modifier) but it is a MINOR
Attacking as a MINOR!

You can stack this with a STANDARD attack as well as an ACTION POINT which when used after your opponent grants your censure bonus can add up to be 10-15 extra points of damage.