Reach Weapon and Hold the Line

[Elder-Basilisk]

Charging foes with Combat Reflexes, Hold the Line, and set vs. charge reach weapons=BAD IDEA.... even if you get double damage on a charge and think they're flatfooted. (And, as my player found out, it's even worse if said foe is wearing steadfast boots).

And now picture the same character with a readied action to attack the first enemy coming into range... which would cause double damage on a charge.

 

[Stalker0]

Actually I see the point, if the hold the line feat just gives you another way to get an AOO because of an opponent's movement, than it would in fact be 1 AOO not 2.

In 3.5 you get 1 AOO per provacation UNLESS both provacations are movement.

 

[Traevanon]

You even get the Hold the Line AoO if the target of the charge isnt you.

You even get a Hold the Line AoO if the target of the charge is quite a distance behind you as long as the person charging enters your threatened area.

 

[billd91]

The only problem with this sentence is the phrase in brackets.

You get it because they are moving into a space you threaten while they are charging.

This is an entirely separate provocation from 'leaving a threatened square'.

-Hyp.

The problem I'm seeing is you get 2 AoO for movement and I don't think that's necessarily kosher. I think movement is 1 provocation and Hold the Line just allows you to shift when you take it from being when the threatened space is left to when it is entered.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I think movement is 1 provocation and Hold the Line just allows you to shift when you take it from being when the threatened space is left to when it is entered.

The actual rule is that leaving multiple threatened squares counts as a single provocation. Not "movement of any sort counts as a single provocation."

Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.

Hold the Line merely adds another condition that provokes. Since that condition is not "moving out of [a] square threatened by [an] opponent," the rule above does not apply.

 

[Nail]

For those interested, here's the rules text:

"Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent."

Again, note that

• it's all about "moving out of" a threatened square. Moving INTO is not a provoking condition.
• only "moving out of" 2 or more squares is concidered the same provoking incident. Every other provokation could happen multiple times in a round, and provoke for each time.

 

[Nail]

Actually I see the point, if the hold the line feat just gives you another way to get an AOO because of an opponent's movement, than it would in fact be 1 AOO not 2.

But "movement" doesn't provoke an AoO.

Moving out of a threatened square does provoke.

The feat Hold the Line does NOT grant an AoO for an opponent moving OUT of a square you threaten. It grants you an AoO when an opponent charges IN to your threatened space.

The distinction is important.

"You may make an attack of opportunity against a charging opponent who enters an area you threaten."

 

[billd91]

But "movement" doesn't provoke an AoO.

Moving out of a threatened square does provoke.

The feat Hold the Line does NOT grant an AoO for an opponent moving OUT of a square you threaten. It grants you an AoO when an opponent charges IN to your threatened space.

The distinction is important.

I'm not certain the distinction is important at all. I see the distinction being when you get the AoO because of movement within the threatened area and it's movement in general that is the provocation.

 

[Nail]

I'm not certain the distinction is important at all. I see the distinction being when you get the AoO because of movement within the threatened area and it's movement in general that is the provocation.

But "movement in general" is never a provocation.

AoOs a provoked by certain actions. Full stop.

• One of those actions is "leaving a threatened area". The caveat here is that you can provoke only once this way per round (per opponent).
  
• One of those actions is "charging into a threatened area of someone with the feat Hold the Line.

so.....two provocations, and 2 AoOs (so long as Combat Reflexes, yadda, yadda....)

 

[Artoomis]

First, of course you only get more than one AoO if you have Combat Reflexes, right? That was not mentioned, although maybe just assumed. (edit: Nail metioned it while I was drafting up this reponse)

Second, Hold the Line gives you an AoO when someone enters your threatened area, giving you an AoO for a charge when you normally would not get one, right?

It sounds to me very much like a movement-caused AoO - basically the same as leaving a threatened square.

Note that:

Combat-AoOs-Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity
"Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent."

does not take into account moving INTO a square because that only provokes an AoO because of a non-core feat, Hold the Line.

Caution is required when using a non-core book with strict core rules text.

You won't find a definitve answer in the RAW here, you'll have to apply some common sense and decide if Hold the Line really creates a new opportunity or just extends the already existing one (moving "out" of a threatened square) to include a new condition (moving "in" to a threatened square).

This sort of common-sense analysis is often required when using non-core feats, spells, abilities etc.