D&D 5E Reach weapons: what's the drawback?

[Pauper]

Easily solved by the polearm fighter by stepping to 10', making attacks, and retreating to 15', forcing the target to enter the threatened space to close the gap once again

In my experience, the monster won't bother approaching the polearm fighter; it will just go attack the mage that the polearm fighter just stepped away from, forcing the polearm fighter to have to engage again. Your mileage may vary, of course.

There are weaknesses to this, of course- limited to 1 reaction, so mobbing the pole weapon fighter limits it's effectiveness. Another is space- if the PA cannot maneuver at all, it steals much of the advantage PA gains (aside from the butt stroke).

Yep, lots of drawbacks that aren't immediately apparent from the description of the feat. The biggest one is related to your 'lack of mobility' comment; a PA/Sentinel character has virtually no ability to exploit his feats while trying to protect a fixed point. In those situations, you'd much rather be a Defense or Protection specialist.

 

[Diamabel]

In my experience, the monster won't bother approaching the polearm fighter; it will just go attack the mage that the polearm fighter just stepped away from, forcing the polearm fighter to have to engage again. Your mileage may vary, of course.



Yep, lots of drawbacks that aren't immediately apparent from the description of the feat. The biggest one is related to your 'lack of mobility' comment; a PA/Sentinel character has virtually no ability to exploit his feats while trying to protect a fixed point. In those situations, you'd much rather be a Defense or Protection specialist.

Proper positioning on the mage and polearm fighters part does a great deal to hamper an enemy even getting close to said mage. It's often possible to make a melee enemy unable to reach the mage at all.
PA/Sentinel trades a minor downside (no protection fighting style) for huge upside (extra OA at 10' that drops enemies move to 0', extra attack as bonus action)

Sure, it's not as good a "protector" as a dedicated defender style warrior.. but you gain reasonable amounts of battlefield control while also enabling huge amounts of damage. (extra attacks on reaction and bonus action)

 

[Nebulous]

This makes me wonder what would happen if you put a squad of six Polearm-trained elite guards up against the PCs.

 

[Jaelommiss]

This makes me wonder what would happen if you put a squad of six Polearm-trained elite guards up against the PCs.

The guards would get roasted alive and the party's wizard would go up a level. Static melee formations are easily eliminated by ranged attacks and magic, especially when they bunch up.

 

[Diamabel]

This makes me wonder what would happen if you put a squad of six Polearm-trained elite guards up against the PCs.

Would depend heavily on PC class composition and terrain.

 

[Diamabel]

The guards would get roasted alive and the party's wizard would go up a level. Static melee formations are easily eliminated by ranged attacks and magic, especially when they bunch up.

A group of 6 polearm trained fighters is hardly what I would call "immobile". It's not like we are looking at a formation of pikemen here- just a skirmish between a group of 6 trained fighters versus (4?) or so PCs.

By that standard, you could say a group of 4 PCs using any combination of melee weapons is immobile, and would get roasted alive by any enemy wizard.

 

[keterys]

The primary problem I've seen with any polearm tricks is the initiative system. No matter how much you try and move into a particular tactical position, when people move past you (because they _need_ to in order to attack anything), or others stagger formation so your overlap trick doesn't work...

That and it eating your reaction, though that only applies to so many characters.

Like the 6 polearm NPC trick works very differently if the 6 NPCs are spread over the initiative chart or have the exact same initiative.

 

[Bayonet]

I don't think feats break the game; I understand if a DM doesn't want to use them, but on the whole I think such wet blankets kill what ought to be a fun, flexible game.

I also don't think polearm master + sentinel breaks anything. As Mouseferatu points out, it's advantages are situationally limited. And on top of this, we're talking about a 4th or 8th level character who has foregone two chances to increase his stats for this ability (and such investment should be advantageous).

As for polearms themselves, I do think there oughta be something in the PHB that limits them in close quarters combat. (If there is, I haven't seen it.) Obviously, a DM worth anything is going to limit the efficiency of a polearm used against an opponent who has closed in, but it doesn't seem too difficult to make this point more obvious: sure, someone closing in is going to take an AoO jab initially, but after that the polearm user is going to be at an extreme disadvantage; it's going to be really, really hard, with a 10' glaive, to hit a goblin who insists on standing on your toes.

For players attacking with a polearm an opponent who's within 5', I'd say you can have a clean 1d4+mods butt strike, but if you want to hit it with armed end of your pole, you'll be attacking with disadvantage.

Used efficiently, however, it can be a great resource for an intelligent party.

Maybe, for someone without the feat, a pole-arm deals 1d10 when the target is at 10', and 1d4 when the target is at 5'. Polearm Master makes you good enough that you can do both, at either range.

A lot of the surviving images from the Fechtbuchs and other medieval manuals show a lot of grappling/pummeling at close range. I have no trouble visualizing a "Polearm Master" slashing an enemy with a halberd, then stepping in to cross-check the poor bugger in the teeth with the shaft. That's how we used the pugil sticks in the Army. Wildly effective (and fun!).
http://vive.moy.su/book/fencing/017_4.jpg

 

[Derren]

Exactly. Theoretically you're actually less likely to get attacks of opportunity with reach weapons since you only get them when enemies leave your threat area! (Without the feat, anyway.)

Wow, I had not realized that they turned the concept of spear walls/weapon length on the defense completely around in 5E (unless you are a "master").

 

[aramis erak]

There's no way a 7' or 10' halberd or glaive is "extremely effective at close range."

You probably should go ask some SCA heavies about that...
I've a buddy who fights using a spear vs guys with swords... and he tends to have a winning average. I've seen the late Sir Kylson Skyfire use a 7' simulated naginata at a range of 2.5 feet; he just chokes up as they close, and can still loft a man off his feet with it. And this is with the SCA's limitations on polearms and great weapons not being allows full wind-up, either. Sir Georg of Glacier's Edge and Sir Virresse de Lighthaven also can short chop with a poleaxe for great effect at very close range. (I have been physically bowled over by Sir Georg, him using a 6' poleaxe, as I stepped in close with sword and board. It was glorious... It was a double kill.)

Getting inside isn't a condition that lasts versus a trained polearms person - they know when and how to choke up and use it effectively at 3-5', and how and when to swing one-handed from the butt of the haft for reach.

I may not have been great at heavy, but I have watched enough to know that reach weapons are readily used close in. I've done enough, and faced enough polearms to know that getting inside is good for maybe one swing before they bring the forehand up and harp-seal one...