D&D 5E Reactions

[Cognomen's Cassowary]

It stand to reason that since Uncanny Dodge does not specify that it interrupts in the same way that the Shield spell does, it would only be allowed after the final step, based upon what the DMG specifies about timing...but by that point, the special effect from Shocking Grasp has rendered the target unable to take a reaction, so Uncanny Dodge cannot be used.

The shield spell does not specify that it interrupts; it specifies its timing, and the DMG clarifies that effects with that timing interrupt. The DMG also says that we should generalize that clarification--shield is only an example. Uncanny dodge has very similar specific timing to shield's, "when an attacker that you can see hits you with an attack" compared to "when you are hit by an attack." There is no reason to think that uncanny dodge does not interrupt simply because it is not the example used in the DMG.

 

[ProphetSword]

But that's just my table -- another DM might interpret it differently, and that ruling would stand at that DM's table.

I'm just presenting the rules as they appear in the books and drawing a conclusion based upon my reading of the rules. Honestly, I could go either way on it. At my table, I DM with the "Rule of Cool," which means that for our group, fun takes priority over rules. It's likely that I would interpret it the same as you. I'm just enjoying the debate, overall, and I wish that the authors had clarified the timing better. I like the lighter rules of 5e, but there are times where it leads to issues.

As I said all the way back on page 3 (I think), the only right answer to this situation is whatever the DM at the table says. This debate could go on forever with no definitive answer until an official ruling is actually made.

 

[ProphetSword]

The shield spell does not specify that it interrupts; it specifies its timing, and the DMG clarifies that effects with that timing interrupt. The DMG also says that we should generalize that clarification--shield is only an example. Uncanny dodge has very similar specific timing to shield's, "when an attacker that you can see hits you with an attack" compared to "when you are hit by an attack." There is no reason to think that uncanny dodge does not interrupt simply because it is not the example used in the DMG.

That's a good point. There are multiple ways to interpret the rules, which is why they should have been solidified to begin with. Honestly, though, it wouldn't break the game either way, so I guess it comes down to how the DM wants to rule it.

 

[Hriston]

The shield spell does not specify that it interrupts; it specifies its timing, and the DMG clarifies that effects with that timing interrupt. The DMG also says that we should generalize that clarification--shield is only an example. Uncanny dodge has very similar specific timing to shield's, "when an attacker that you can see hits you with an attack" compared to "when you are hit by an attack." There is no reason to think that uncanny dodge does not interrupt simply because it is not the example used in the DMG.

The language in shield that specifies that it interrupts the hit is (in bold), "Until the start of your next turn, you have a +5 bonus to AC, including against the triggering attack..." Uncanny Dodge contains no such language.

 

[Uller]

"...you can use your reaction to halve the attack's damage."

If it isn't talking about the attack that hit you, what attack is it talking about?



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[Cognomen's Cassowary]

The language in shield that specifies that it interrupts the hit is (in bold), "Until the start of your next turn, you have a +5 bonus to AC, including against the triggering attack..." Uncanny Dodge contains no such language.

That language does not specify that the reaction interrupts the attack, only that its effect applies to the hit. Note that the other example of a reaction which interrupts, an attack of opportunity, does not have such language allowing it to "undo" the triggering movement. It interrupts on the basis of its timing, as does shield, and in fact that quoted section of the DMG is not about reactions which contain specific language allowing them to interrupt, but about the timing of reactions allowing them to interrupt. The timing of uncanny dodge makes it clear that it interrupts, both because it has very similar timing to shield and because it reduces damage before it is dealt; it does not restore HP afterward.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

...it reduces damage before it is dealt; it does not restore HP afterward.

It is true that it is clear that damage is being reduced before being subtracted from the hit point total, rather than the damage being subtracted from hit points and then half the damage value being added to hit points afterward.

However, that does not specifically address the timing of when this reduction happens relative to the non-damage effects of having been hit by an attack. And since the DMG says:

"...If a reaction has no timing specified, or the timing is unclear, the reaction occurs after its trigger finishes..."

We can use the debate in this thread and the text of Uncanny Dodge not specifically calling out how it interacts with non-damage effects of hits as evidence that the timing is unclear, which means the reaction occurs after its trigger finishes - making this specific situation, getting hit by shocking grasp, an exception to the generality of being able to use Uncanny Dodge to reduce damage when hit by an attack.

 

[TheWriterFantastic™]

It is true that it is clear that damage is being reduced before being subtracted from the hit point total, rather than the damage being subtracted from hit points and then half the damage value being added to hit points afterward.

However, that does not specifically address the timing of when this reduction happens relative to the non-damage effects of having been hit by an attack. And since the DMG says:

"...If a reaction has no timing specified, or the timing is unclear, the reaction occurs after its trigger finishes..."

We can use the debate in this thread and the text of Uncanny Dodge not specifically calling out how it interacts with non-damage effects of hits as evidence that the timing is unclear, which means the reaction occurs after its trigger finishes - making this specific situation, getting hit by shocking grasp, an exception to the generality of being able to use Uncanny Dodge to reduce damage when hit by an attack.

While the timing is not explicitly specified, it is implicit in the text -- in a timeline of events, the reaction for Uncanny Dodge must occur prior to the damage and additional effects of the hit being resolved in order for the Uncanny Dodge to halve the damage -- otherwise, all rogues are time-travelers...

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

While the timing is not explicitly specified, it is implicit in the text -- in a timeline of events, the reaction for Uncanny Dodge must occur prior to the damage and additional effects of the hit being resolved in order for the Uncanny Dodge to halve the damage -- otherwise, all rogues are time-travelers...

Must occur prior to the damage? Yes. Must occur prior to additional effects? That's unclear.

The game does not have an established timeline of resolution that gives us discrete steps such as:
1. Roll attack.
2. Determine if attack is a hit by comparing result to AC.
3. Roll damage.
4. Reduce damage if able
5. Apply damage to hit point total.
6. Apply other effects of successful hit.

but specifically not:
2. Determine if attack is a hit by comparing result to AC.
3. Apply any non-damage effects of a successful hit.
4. Roll damage.
5. Reduce damage if able.

and so forth.

That lack of specificity in general process means that any interaction has to be made specific, for example the specification of shield that it applies it's bonus against the attack that created the opportunity for its casting, or it is unclear. Or, to phrase that differently; implicit timing = unclear timing.

 

[Hriston]

That language does not specify that the reaction interrupts the attack, only that its effect applies to the hit. Note that the other example of a reaction which interrupts, an attack of opportunity, does not have such language allowing it to "undo" the triggering movement. It interrupts on the basis of its timing, as does shield, and in fact that quoted section of the DMG is not about reactions which contain specific language allowing them to interrupt, but about the timing of reactions allowing them to interrupt. The timing of uncanny dodge makes it clear that it interrupts, both because it has very similar timing to shield and because it reduces damage before it is dealt; it does not restore HP afterward.

No, it doesn't interrupt the hit. It reduces damage dealt. That's an entirely different thing and has nothing to do with the other effect(s) of the hit.