Readied actions, invisibility, and attacks: which comes first?

[Pielorinho]

Let me tell you something: imps are nasty little mothers. In last night's game, I sicced two by-the-book imps on a party of buffed-up, prepped 3rd level characters (32 point buy, an extra feat per character, forewarned about the imps and their poison and invisibility), and watched the imps nearly kill the party. By the end of the combat, two characters had 0 Dex, one had dex in the low single digits, and hit points were badly flagging. Were it not for two lucky strikes, we would've seen a TPK. Craziness!

Anyway, I made two spot decisions that I'm slightly questioning now:
1) For some reason, I think that a tiny creature sharing the space with a medium creature gets cover from creatures in other spaces. In other words, the imps could sting someone and then dodge behind them, making it difficult for their victim's friend to hit the imp. Was I smoking crack, or is this rule somewhere in the books?
2) Once the party caught on to the imp's obnoxious tactics (turn invisible and move in close! sting and fly out of reach! Turn invisible and move in close!), they started readying actions to partial-charge the little buggers when they reappeared. I ruled that, since the imps didn't turn visible until they attacked, their attacks would be resolved before the readied actions. To do as normal--to resolve the readied action first--would imply that the readied actions went off before the imps turned visible, meaning that the PCs wouldn't know which square to target. Is this ruling by the books?

Quick note on a good idea, if you're an imp: open the battle by shouting at the big lunks, "Hey, you'll never hit me with that weapon! I suggest that you drop it and try to grab me instead!" Nice, reasonable suggestion that the lunks absolutely hate .

Daniel

 

[Thanee]

Was I smoking crack, or is this rule somewhere in the books?

Well, I hope you know the answer to the first part (and I further hope it is "no" ), but I can't really help you with the second part. Sorry.

The rules for tiny creatures are kinda weird.

Also note, that even invisible, moving into an occupied square would provoke an attack of opportunity, so if there was any chance to figure out, that the imp is there (hearing the wing flapping for example), the character would have a chance to strike with the usual miss chance before the imp can attack. Of course, it will be kinda tricky to pinpoint the creature, but it's worth a try.

2) Once the party caught on to the imp's obnoxious tactics (turn invisible and move in close! sting and fly out of reach! Turn invisible and move in close!), they started readying actions to partial-charge the little buggers when they reappeared. I ruled that, since the imps didn't turn visible until they attacked, their attacks would be resolved before the readied actions. To do as normal--to resolve the readied action first--would imply that the readied actions went off before the imps turned visible, meaning that the PCs wouldn't know which square to target. Is this ruling by the books?

I think that's fine. The ready action triggers by the reappearance, not by the attack. And you should turn visible right after the attack, I believe, otherwise you would not really have attacked yet, even though the intent is surely there.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pielorinho]

Also note, that even invisible, moving into an occupied square would provoke an attack of opportunity, so if there was any chance to figure out, that the imp is there (hearing the wing flapping for example), the character would have a chance to strike with the usual miss chance before the imp can attack. Of course, it will be kinda tricky to pinpoint the creature, but it's worth a try.

Really? I thought you lost your dex bonus to AC against invisible creatures, and therefore couldn't make AoOs against them. Am I conflating two different rules here? In any case, I had the party making perception checks every round, DC 20, to figure out roughly where the imps were; the checks generally went badly enough that nobody could know they were around except from the obvious fact that they'd been attacking the party .

How would you resolve such AoOs? Do you tell the character, "You're not sure why, but you realize you're able to make an extra attack right now; if you want to do so, tell me which square you're attacking"? That just seems silly to me.

Daniel

 

[Pielorinho]

Also, reviewing the rules for tiny creatures and for cover, I'm not sure where I got the idea that they got cover from being in the same square with a medium creature.

On the other hand, I didn't use the rules for improved cover later in the combat; when a PC on the ground attacked an imp on top of a ledge, in a hole, with a PC crouched in front of the hole, I still gave the imp only a +2 cover bonus to AC. So maybe it evened out.

Daniel

 

[Doomhunter]

You would tell the character that something is attacking him. It might be invisible but he can still hear it, smell it, and they know it is somewhere nearby. Invisibilty grants the imps a 50% miss chance, but the hero's get to take the attack of oppertunity.

 

[Pielorinho]

Hearing it and smelling it is represented by the spot/listen check DC 20 to know that there's an invisible creature nearby, right? If someone doesn't make that check, they don't have sensory evidence the creature's nearby, do they?

Daniel

 

[Aaron2]

Hearing it and smelling it is represented by the spot/listen check DC 20 to know that there's an invisible creature nearby, right? If someone doesn't make that check, they don't have sensory evidence the creature's nearby, do they?

As soon as the Imp attacks, it takes a -20 penalty on Move Silently. That might be enough to turn a failed Listen into a success.

As to the AoO, the defender would be standing with his weapon drawn, swinging at any possible sound (or just swinging randomly). You've seen the movies. Any AoO that hits could be the result of random flailing about. If you wish, call for random AoOs among the party.

I'm reminded of that scene in Chinese Ghost Story II, where the dude is fighting the two invisible demons. He readies an action until they attack and then splashes a pool of blood (from his severed arm) onto them. He then attacks the bloody spots. Your PCs are carrying sacks of flour aren't they?


Aaron

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

I'm thinking you did it right...


DC 20 Spot/listen checks to identify target - if target is incurring an AoO, you get to take it.

I don't think Thanee was disagreeing with that...


Although, it sounds like the party was maybe underequipped to deal with two imps? The idea of the readied actions to attack is good (partial charge? that was 3.0, not 3.5, right?) and it gets triggered when the imp turns visible. I suspect that change in tactics occurred about half way through the fight?

Personally, I wouldn't've given the imps cover - I'd've been trying to aid the party slightly and just simply ignored the logic of the cover. But it sounds like you've got that figured out

small, invis, dex draining, quick little opponents vs 3rd level party.

Yep. I'd estimate about 50-70% resource drain on the party for that encounter, given your description of the 32 point buy, etc. composition of said party.

However, I'll bet they learned more than a few lessons about fighting invisible foes, no?

 

[andargor]

Really? I thought you lost your dex bonus to AC against invisible creatures, and therefore couldn't make AoOs against them.

The reason you can't make AoO's against the imps is because of total concealment:

You can't execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.

Andargor

 

[DarkMaster]

I would rule that if you cannot detect them you can't AoO, but if you succeed on the DC20 spot required to identify the approximate location of an invisible creature then I would allow the AoO.

I would resolve in the following way. First round I would have them take 10, 5 or 0 on their spot check depending on their level of vigilance. If some where able to spot them anyway I would say that they noticed an unusual blur or some unusual displacement of the dust floating in the air and would allow the AoO especially if they know that the bugger can turn invisible. For the other rounds then they would roll the DC 20 check with a circumstance bonus because they saw them turn invisible and they know that they will charge again. But I would allow an AoO on them when they leave the PCs square since they are not invisible anymore.

I would also use a -4 penality to hit because of the extra carefulness required not to hit your friend (but I don't know if it's part of the official rule).

As for knowing how tough Imp can be I don't know the only Imp I placed was killed by lucky roll by the rogue who was 3rd level at a time. She caught him by surprise with two very good hide and move silently check and shot him with her short bow for 3d6+1 damage rolling a 17 for 18 pts dmg knocking it inconscious, she then jumped on it and finished it. I was very dissapointed (I almost decided that the imp had 14hp instead of 13, but moments like that are what makes the game interesting for the players).