Readied Actions

[fusangite]

Hi guys,

A friend of mine has asked me to post his concerns about readied actions to this forum and solicit some reaction. The views expressed below are those of my friend and not necessarily mine. Your feedback would be greatly appreciated.

An odd problem came up on the weekend during the game: people seem to be abusing readied actions. Ironically, of course, it's the same people who habitually complain about the legalism and absurdity of the rules.

First, they're using the readied actions all the time. It has been increasing to the point where it seems like about 50% of player actions are readied actions lately. This is irritating for bookkeeping, and maybe I'll have to modify my notekeeping system, but it's not really an abuse, more of an overuse.

More problematically, though, readied actions are being used to reverse time and get things to happen before other things happened. For example: the party is currently encountering a banshee. The banshee (whom they have not yet identified as such) floats through the wall and touches the party bard, doing 3 points of Charisma damage. People instantly spring into action and declare readied actions: mainly conditional on her "acting offensively". The players seem unsure if she is actually hostile, so someone uses a free action to order her to indicate if she is not hostile and back away. One person tries to ready casting a spell on her "not backing away" - which I disallowed because she was "not backing away" on an ongoing basis - I don't think the rules allow for readied actions on something "not" happening, especially if it's currently not happening.

Anyway, the banshee's next action is to scream, which is her special attack and a supernatural power. I attempted to rule that the readied action could not have gone off before the scream, because it would be impossible to tell if the scream was an offensive action until it happened (maybe she's just opening her mouth to say "I am not hostile", as they were asking her to indicate). Unfortunately, the rules in the Player's Handbook appear to indicate that the readied action occurs "before" the action which triggers it and "interrupt" it, and I was unable to find any wording which would prevent the scream from being retroactively preempted, and was forced to concede, but I've been annoyed by it ever since. I believe the language is meant to support things like interrupting a spell, or shooting people as they appear in doorways, not to allow causal paradox: if the scream hasn't taken place, what triggers the readied action - and if the scream is successfully prevented, how did they know it would happen?

There is also a broader question of this interpretation making readied actions too powerful: if you can ready an action for something general (like "offensive action"), and the GM allows the player to state whether he feels the trigger condition has been met (e.g. "she is opening her mouth - do you think this is an offensive action, or would you like to stay readied?"), then the readied action functions as a sort of super held action with temporal privilege.

So, do you know of any strategies for preventing this sort of abuse of readied actions?

So, advice, suggestions, similar experiences?

 

[orangefruitbat]

Well, I would force everyone to make a Knowledge (Religion) check at DC 20. If they make the check, they recognize the banshee for what she is and can use their redied action. If not, then they cannot act until after the banshee wails.

Oh, and if the triggering action does not occur, then the character loses his action this round, cause he's waiting for something to happen which doesn't.

Hi guys,

A friend of mine has asked me to post his concerns about readied actions to this forum and solicit some reaction. The views expressed below are those of my friend and not necessarily mine. Your feedback would be greatly appreciated.



More problematically, though, readied actions are being used to reverse time and get things to happen before other things happened. For example: the party is currently encountering a banshee. The banshee (whom they have not yet identified as such) floats through the wall and touches the party bard, doing 3 points of Charisma damage. People instantly spring into action and declare readied actions: mainly conditional on her "acting offensively". The players seem unsure if she is actually hostile, so someone uses a free action to order her to indicate if she is not hostile and back away. One person tries to ready casting a spell on her "not backing away" - which I disallowed because she was "not backing away" on an ongoing basis - I don't think the rules allow for readied actions on something "not" happening, especially if it's currently not happening.

Anyway, the banshee's next action is to scream, which is her special attack and a supernatural power. I attempted to rule that the readied action could not have gone off before the scream, because it would be impossible to tell if the scream was an offensive action until it happened (maybe she's just opening her mouth to say "I am not hostile", as they were asking her to indicate). Unfortunately, the rules in the Player's Handbook appear to indicate that the readied action occurs "before" the action which triggers it and "interrupt" it, and I was unable to find any wording which would prevent the scream from being retroactively preempted, and was forced to concede, but I've been annoyed by it ever since. I believe the language is meant to support things like interrupting a spell, or shooting people as they appear in doorways, not to allow causal paradox: if the scream hasn't taken place, what triggers the readied action - and if the scream is successfully prevented, how did they know it would happen?

There is also a broader question of this interpretation making readied actions too powerful: if you can ready an action for something general (like "offensive action"), and the GM allows the player to state whether he feels the trigger condition has been met (e.g. "she is opening her mouth - do you think this is an offensive action, or would you like to stay readied?"), then the readied action functions as a sort of super held action with temporal privilege.

So, do you know of any strategies for preventing this sort of abuse of readied actions?

So, advice, suggestions, similar experiences?

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

1) You have to remember that you cannot ready an action outside of combat. Had the party already seen the banshee and rolled initiative before she floated through the wall to touch the Bard? Why? If there was no offensive action, you should not be in initiative/combat mode.

2) If the banshee has floated out through the wall, rule that a spot check is needed to see her before you can execute a readied action. PCs cannot be looking everywhere at once.

3) Readied actions must be specific. Readying against an "offensive action" is not specific.

4) You were correct about the "not backing away" ruling.

5) You cannot "interrupt" the scream, other than if you manage to kill the banshee before its action, or have specifically prepared to do something to stop a banshee scream. You cannot cast a silence spell to block the scream unless you specify exactly that.

6) You can only ready a single move, standard or free action, not a combination of them (with the exception of a 5 foot step) so that limits what can be done.

 

[fusangite]

Thanks for responding, guys. I have some devil's advocate responses for your well thought-out answers. I'd be interested in further feedback.

1) You have to remember that you cannot ready an action outside of combat.

I'm surprised by this. Does that mean that a group of warriors waiting to be charged by their opponents can't ready an action against the charge because combat has not started yet?

Had the party already seen the banshee and rolled initiative before she floated through the wall to touch the Bard? Why? If there was no offensive action, you should not be in initiative/combat mode.

Initiative had not been rolled. But to look a little more seriously at this, doesn't that mean that during a parley with a creature who might turn on the party at any moment, it is impossible to ready an action against an expected attack?

2) If the banshee has floated out through the wall, rule that a spot check is needed to see her before you can execute a readied action. PCs cannot be looking everywhere at once.

Again, playing devil's advocate here, what if the only potential threat is the banshee?

3) Readied actions must be specific. Readying against an "offensive action" is not specific.

What about readying against an "anything but" action like in cop shows when a character has a gun pointed at another, "one false move and..." It seems to me that in those situations, doing anything other than standing still or talking provokes a readied action. By your argument, the cop could ready against the suspect running away or pulling a gun but not both.

4) You were correct about the "not backing away" ruling.

Again, using the example of the police officer with the gun, isn't this, again, standard practice: "If you don't drop the weapon/get down on your knees/back away from the fuse/whatever, I'll shoot."

5) You cannot "interrupt" the scream, other than if you manage to kill the banshee before its action, or have specifically prepared to do something to stop a banshee scream. You cannot cast a silence spell to block the scream unless you specify exactly that.

But what if they can inflict enough damage to kill the banshee in one round? According to the rules, readied actions always interrupt the action that sets them off.

Well, I would force everyone to make a Knowledge (Religion) check at DC 20. If they make the check, they recognize the banshee for what she is and can use their redied action. If not, then they cannot act until after the banshee wails.

I recommended the Know (Religion) idea to my friend for understanding the scream to be a standard action at all. Because talking is a free action that can take place during others' initiatives and the scream is not physically distinguishable from it until after the fact, this does seem like a sustainable argument to me. However, it is clear that, because of the way the rules are written that if the scream is recognized the actions go off before it takes place.

 

[Numion]

You could've rules that they heard just a few microseconds of the scream and acted then. NOw we all know that the minimum lethal dose of banshee wail is 43 ms. If they fail to kill the Banshee on these readied actions the wail resumes. You explain it being just in time, even though rules say blah blah blah about which happens when.

 

[Varianor Abroad]

Thornir has some great advice here. I'm going to let him or a gazillion others respond to most o fit.

What about readying against an "anything but" action like in cop shows when a character has a gun pointed at another, "one false move and..." It seems to me that in those situations, doing anything other than standing still or talking provokes a readied action. By your argument, the cop could ready against the suspect running away or pulling a gun but not both.Again, using the example of the police officer with the gun, isn't this, again, standard practice: "If you don't drop the weapon/get down on your knees/back away from the fuse/whatever, I'll shoot."But what if they can inflict enough damage to kill the banshee in one round? According to the rules, readied actions always interrupt the action that sets them off.

You need to ready against an action. Not to rules lawyer, but "if they back away I shoot" is valid versus "If they don't back away I shoot." The former is an action, the latter is a lack of an action. In the second instance, the DM could fairly say IMO "roll an attack then, or choose another action."

Does this friend of yours have a large group? Or a lot of experienced players? It sounds like they are trying to optimize the combat for their own success. Which is cool. But he needs to throw some things at them to shake them up a bit. Maybe on Round Two an allip with bard levels floats out of the wall behind them. (The bean sidhe's lover in life who killed himself in her scream thinking he would join her.) They aren't readied for that are they?

 

[fusangite]

You need to ready against an action. Not to rules lawyer, but "if they back away I shoot" is valid versus "If they don't back away I shoot."

This seems at variance with the RAW:

You can ready a standard cation, a move action or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. For example, you might specify that you will shoot an arrow at anyone coming through a nearby doorway. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.

The former is an action, the latter is a lack of an action. In the second instance, the DM could fairly say IMO "roll an attack then, or choose another action."

But both are conditions.

Does this friend of yours have a large group?

Seven players.

Or a lot of experienced players?

With one exception, I introduced these players to D&D 3-4 years ago. This group used to be mine; my friend inherited it.

It sounds like they are trying to optimize the combat for their own success.

Isn't that what everyone does?

 

[MichaelH]

I'm surprised by this. Does that mean that a group of warriors waiting to be charged by their opponents can't ready an action against the charge because combat has not started yet?

If it's the first round of combat and the charging opponents have won initiative and can get to the warriors in one round, yes. That's what losing initiative means. It's not that they are unaware of the attackers, but when the moment of truth comes the defenders either froze or hesitated and they pay the price. If they win initiative, they certainly may Ready for the charge.

This is from the DMG, page 26, under "Adjudicating the Ready Action."

Don't allow players to use the ready action outside combat. While the above examples are all acceptable in the middle of an encounter, a player cannot use the ready action to cover a door with his crossbow outside combat. It's okay for a player to state that he's covering the door, but what that means is that if something comes through the door he's unlikely to be caught unaware. If the character coming through the door wasn't aware of him, he gets an extra standard action because he surprised the other character, and so he can shoot the weapon. Otherwise, he still needs to roll initiative for his character normally.

That paragraph is extremely helpful, IMO, for understanding how the ready action is designed to work and why it is only for inside of combat. The entire section in the DMG on ready actions is worth reading on pages 25-26.

Initiative had not been rolled. But to look a little more seriously at this, doesn't that mean that during a parley with a creature who might turn on the party at any moment, it is impossible to ready an action against an expected attack?

Yes. The characters can be ready, but initiative determines who goes first. Your players should not have been able to ready any actions against the Banshee if initiative had not been rolled. If you let them all ready against the Banshee outside of combat and then let them all take those actions before the Banshee could do anything, then of course the ready action is being abused. This is not how the ready action works.

 

[fusangite]

Thanks heaps for that information, Michael. I had completely forgotten the DMG had anything helpful to say. This clears everything up.

 

[Varianor Abroad]

This seems at variance with the RAW:But both are conditions.Seven

Okay, thanks for the SRD repost. (Knew I should have reread it.) So the player is stating "I will cast a spell if the banshee does not back away." Fine. What if the banshee steps forward? Or shrieks? Is the action then wasted? It sounds like it's a conditional "I cast my spell if the banshee does anything except back away." The reverse is "I will not cast a spell if the banshee does back away." It seems legal then and I reverse myself other than to comment that it does seem like the player is playing within the letter of the rules but not the spirit*.

Is your friend getting stymied because his players have figured out his typical tactics - what the poker player would call his "tells"? He's trying to feel tactically effective against a groupmind of 7? I've been there and seen that frustration. You get better, meaner and trickier if you don't knuckle under.

*In context with the rest of the description only.