Reading Group--Caesar's Legion

[Leopold]

I definitely felt that Sun Tzu's Art of War and Musashi's Book of Five Rings, while interesting, were far too abstract and metaphorical for down-to-earth strategy books.

i on the other hand thought Sun Tzu is the perfect primer for dealing in war tactics "Do not attack the capital, attack the cities, do not attack the enemy when the enemy's back is to the wall, etc." There are hundreds of such tactics and ideas held in that book that the Military REQUIRES all their ROTC/Cadets/OTS officers read it and learn it.

Even after 3000 years the book still holds merrit..water..be like water...

 

[mmadsen]

i on the other hand thought Sun Tzu is the perfect primer for dealing in war tactics

For anyone interested in Sun Tzu's Art of War, here's an on-line e-text: http://www.chinapage.com/philosophy/sunzi/sunzi-e.html

"Do not attack the capital, attack the cities, do not attack the enemy when the enemy's back is to the wall, etc." There are hundreds of such tactics and ideas held in that book that the Military REQUIRES all their ROTC/Cadets/OTS officers read it and learn it.

Even after 3000 years the book still holds merrit..water..be like water...

My point was not that it was a bad book not worth reading, simply that it was not a down-to-earth introduction to strategy. For every straightforward "do not attack the capital" there is a metaphorical "be like water".

(Back on topic...)

 

[mmadsen]

Chapter V -- Invading Britain (one last anecdote)

I love this anecdote:

A lone legionary, almost certainly a man of Caesar's bodyguard from the 10th Legion, threw himself at the tribesmen and fought them off, allowing the officers to make their way to solid ground. The legionary then took to the water and, partly by swimming and partly by wading, joined the officers. But in the process he had to let go of his shield. As Caesar and his companions came up to him to congratulate him on his deed, the soldier dropped to his knees in front of the general.

"Forgive me, Caesar," said the soldier, close to tears.

"Forgive you?" Caesar responded with surprise. "But why?"

"For losing my shield," the legionary replied with genuine concern. Under legion regulations, he could be severely punished.

 

[Leopold]

For anyone interested in Sun Tzu's Art of War, here's an on-line e-text: http://www.chinapage.com/philosophy/sunzi/sunzi-e.html



My point was not that it was a bad book not worth reading, simply that it was not a down-to-earth introduction to strategy. For every straightforward "do not attack the capital" there is a metaphorical "be like water".

(Back on topic...)

i will still aruge the contrary! But we digress. Back to the legions.

i crushed through chapters 1 and 2. I love the fact that they had a cliffhanger in chapter one waiting until page 173(yes i checked) to pick up where it left off. The sheer fact that these troops were raised, organized, and deployed in weeks instead of months is a testament to the training they recieved. I am at the battle for the swiss and saw how easy the legions defeated a force much larger than them by tactics and equipment rather than brute force.

That's what makes or breaks an army is the caliber of the officers that lead and the way they instruct and command respect from their troops. Calipsan (guessing here) leads his troops from the front line by example rather than rallying from behind them. He shows them that if he can do it they can do it, and inspires his troops. That's brave and gutsy and has a greater chance of death for a good leader, but in those days out of the 5 or 6 generals only 2/3 were capable and the rest useless..not a good ratio!

back on track!

 

[optimizer]

Howdy!

Can anyone recommend Strategy, by Basil Henry Liddell Hart? It sounds like what I've been looking for.

It has been over 20 years since I read it, but as I recall it may be what you want (I thought of that book when I first saw your post above). It provides his theory on strategy, supported with examples from history.

I hope that this helps.

Mike

 

[mmadsen]

It has been over 20 years since I read it, but as I recall it may be what you want (I thought of that book when I first saw your post above). It provides his theory on strategy, supported with examples from history.

Thanks, Mike/optimizer. My reading list keeps getting longer and longer...

To tie together Hart (a proponent of maneuver warfare, from what I've read) and Sun Tzu, I'll quote from the Art of War: "Maneuvering with an army is advantageous; with an undisciplined multitude, most dangerous."

(OK, back on topic...)

 

[mmadsen]

Chapter VI -- Revolt and Revenge

A few hundred men managed to fight their way back to the camp, but most of the others, including Generals Sabinus and Cotta, were surrounded and killed in the ambush, fighting to the last man in an orbis, the Roman army's circular formation of last resort.

Grim image, but the notion of a special, named, last-resort formation sounds like it belongs in a bad anime.

That night, the survivors holding the camp, out of ammunition, out of food, and out of hope, entered into a pact, and every man took his own life. In the forest and in the camp, more than eight thousand legionaries died that day.

I'm not sure what to say. Imagine watching thousands of your friends and allies killed in an ambush. Then imagine being one of a few hundred left -- and knowing you're next.

As an aside, "ammunition" always sounds wrong to me when it's not referring to modern gun ammunition.

From Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary:

Main Entry: am·mu·ni·tion
Pronunciation: "am-y&-'ni-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: obsolete French amunition, from Middle French, alteration of munition
Date: circa 1626
1 a : the projectiles with their fuses, propelling charges, or primers fired from guns b : CARTRIDGES c : explosive military items (as grenades or bombs)
2 : material for use in attacking or defending a position <ammunition for the defense lawyers>

Main Entry: mu·ni·tion
Pronunciation: myu-'ni-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Latin munition-, munitio, from munire to fortify, from moenia walls; akin to Latin murus wall and perhaps to Sanskrit minoti he builds, fastens
Date: 1508
1 archaic : RAMPART, DEFENSE
2 : ARMAMENT, AMMUNITION
- munition transitive verb

A messenger galloped back to Cicero with a dispatch from Caesar, written in Greek so the tribesmen couldn't understand it if it fell into the wrong hands.

I love that little detail.

But the courier couldn't get through the enemy. So, pretending to be one of the attackers, he joined their next raid against the Roman camp, and threw a javelin with the message tied to it. The javelin lodged in the woodwork of a Roman guard tower and went unnoticed for another two days before a sentry spotted the message, unfurled it, and took it to General Cicero.

Very cool story.

 

[mmadsen]

Chapter VI -- Revolt and Revenge (continued)

I couldn't make this up:

Caesar was always thinking, always innovative, and at the camp gates he had his men build walls made of a single brick's thickness of earth. From the outside, it looked as if the gates were as solid as the walls, and the tribesmen didn't even bother to attack there, gates normally being the most heavily defended part of any Roman camp....The apparently solid walls at the gateways suddenly tumbled outward, and the Roman cavalry charged out into the massed ranks of the enemy. The results were panic and slaughter.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Very interesting, mmadsen, very interesting! I love all of the little stories and details that are included in how everything is done! Great stuff!

Chapter VI: Revolt and Revenge

Chapter VI, page 54
____________________________________________________
Quote:

"With the town gates open, Caesar sent in the two legions on standby. Orleans was quickly taken and ruthlessly plundered."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

Chapter VI, page 55
____________________________________________________
Quote:

"Vercingetorix, who'd been against holding the town at first, sent ten thousand of his men to help the forty thousand people of Bourges defend their city."

"But ultimately, inevitably, the legions came over the walls one wet night. Just eight hundred people in the town managed to escape to Vercingetorix's camp in the darkness. Tens of thousands more were cut down in the narrow streets of the town."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

800 from 50,000! That's 49,200 people put to the sword! Wow!

Caesar is really gearing up for the trials to come!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[mmadsen]

That's 49,200 people put to the sword! Wow!

Caesar is really gearing up for the trials to come!

I'm trying to imagine 50,000 people stabbed to death, and -- quite fortunately -- I can't. Ick. And he's just getting warmed up!