D&D General Reading Ravenloft the setting

[Bedrockgames]

Everything she has done has been backstory stuff. She doesn't actively do anything interesting that isn't motivated by her need for love. How is she a better political leader? Yes, the people like her, but she also has a much smaller population to deal with and far fewer active threats than Azalin does.

Seriously: what makes her a better political leader or Dark Lord?

She is a better dark lord Both are terrible political leaders. But she is a better dark lord because she has more pathos, she is more tragic, her cruelty makes more sense, and her domain is so atmospheric and interesting for adventuring in. She is a much better fit for the gothic horror theme, than Azalin or Darkon. Most dark lords are terrible political leaders. I would much rather come up with adventures about Jacqueline Renier, and plots that stem from her sense of rejection and resentment, and a desire for love, than I would about Azalin's desire to escape Ravenloft. I said a while back, I am not a fan of Darkon or Azalin.

And she is much more than just about love. She and her family fled persecution in Falkovnia. She was trained by her father, the original lord of the domain, and she killed him to take power (again not a passive character at all, and nothing about that is centered on love or a desire for a baby). Importantly, and possibly why she is a better lord than Azalin, the population size increased after she took control (it seems because she took in refugees from other domains). But her domain isn't like Darkon. And her personality, cruel, manipulative and domineering (again not passive) are very good fits for a villain in a horror setting. Like I said, this was a character I could easily run, because she popped off the page and I instantly understood how to play her as an over the top villain. Azalin on the other hand, I never got. Also, I love lycanthropes. I think domain lords like her and Harkon Lukas are just fun to play and interesting. Also the idea of this underpopulated city, with abandoned homes and structures, socialites and a terrifying system of sewers (presumably infested by rats and were rats) really worked well as a site for adventure. It can handle mysteries, the occasional delve into the sewers and countless other types of adventures (a monster hunt in Richemulot is quite fun to run and play). And visually a city like Pont-a-Museau always seemed very well done (just in terms of the layout). Plus she has a twin sister waiting in the wings to seize power herself (which as a plot device for a GM is priceless). She is up there with Harkon Lukas and his daughter to me in that respect.

In terms of population size. That doesn't really matter. Richemulot works as an atmospheric domain because it has an abandoned feel where the city is underpopulated. Some of the best domains are small and have small populations (Kartakass, Barovia, Lamordia, Tepest, Forlorn, etc). It is a worthy domain of a good and well made lord. Darkon is just typical D&D fantasy with a veneer of horror (IMO)

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

I guess Bedrockgames wants to means is she is a more interesting antagonists to create new stories.

I have said I don't like the dread domains like the dark lords backyard because I would rather stories about the "monster of the week" and conflicts between supernatural factions, and then the "biomas" need a lot of more space, because no ecosystem can survive with too many predators and not enough preys. Teorically the citizens don't notice about the most of the attacks by the monsters and they believe they are ordinary criminals.

 

[Bedrockgames]

We are talking about a different society. They most of women couldn't be independient workers. Everybody wants to feel loved and respected, ones with a family, others with power and social status.

Ravenloft is not about historical realism. But in history female rulers existed. Powerful females existed. And in Ravenloft they exist.

A evil queen as dark lord may be possible, but I am afraid anybody wouldn't feel very confortable with characters suspected to be allegories about the Victory or the Elisabeth queens. It is curious because Ravenloft hasn't got a female vampire as dark lord, or a female as ruler of a domain.

There are female political leaders in Ravenloft. Ivana Boritsi controls Borca (she literally owns all of it). Jacqueline Renier is arguably the political leader of Richemulot (the initial description of it is a bit vague but she definitely seized power from her father and the pursuit of power is one of her primary motivations). An evil vampire queen, I think would be totally possible. There is a very well known image in the Van Richten Vampire Guide that is pretty much that. Even Gabrielle Aderre, who isn't the political ruler is a terrifying figure everyone knows and fears. Later you do have domains like I'Cath, which effectively has a female ruler (though it is really small). You could definitely have more though. I don't see why having more direct female domain rulers would be a problem

 

[Bedrockgames]

I guess Bedrockgames wants to means is she is a more interesting antagonists to create new stories.

I have said I don't like the dread domains like the dark lords backyard because I would rather stories about the "monster of the week" and conflicts between supernatural factions, and then the "biomas" need a lot of more space, because no ecosystem can survive with too many predators and not enough preys. Teorically the citizens don't notice about the most of the attacks by the monsters and they believe they are ordinary criminals.

I think we have gone over this to death, but it is a demi plane with its own internal logic. There is something surreal about it, and while it occasionally needs to be grouped in something that feels real, I don't think it is a setting the benefits from counting the pints of blood the domain lord vampire needs to drink in a week.

What I mean is two-fold: she is a more interesting character to run, which you shouldn't do too much anyways because she is a lord, and she can be a good background source of adventure int he way that Harkon Lukas can. However, I do think the focus of Ravenloft is best as monster of the week. With that in mind, I like the bare bones, more spaces to fill on my own, approach you have earlier on in the line.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Think of it this way: WotC is trying to write this book to a PG/PG-13 audience. Falkovia is a Hard R. There might be a place for a setting that handles the mature topics Falkovia embodies, but I don't believe WotC is the people to do it. They are Marvel now: toned down for general consumption. It's the price paid for it's large popularity and widespread success.

WotC is putting a primer on hard and soft limitations on horror in the book to discuss tailoring horror to the audience and respecting thier boundaries. They're not putting Holocaustville in as a setting.

I get that they view themselves as a kind of marvel now. My view, and I know this probably is an outlier view, is leaning too much into that, damages the things that make a property interesting (again, back to my older posts on pablum and filing off the sharp edges). That said, I don't think I've ever seen Ravenloft as a Hard R. I think more soft R or PG-13 (though I am guessing my PG-13 is not in line with the PG-13 many in this thread would have). Vampire was more R rated than Ravenloft (and more about social and political issues). Ravenloft was always more Rosemary's Baby or Horror of Dracula than Friday the 13th. And the black boxed emphasized hinting and subtlety. As the line developed the holocaust references got more explicit I think. I think in Ravenloft you can and should have those things if you are going to be true to the setting, but not in a way that is intended to shock. The intent should be to produce dread and building horror. For example the sisters cannibalism was mentioned. You wouldn't do that in Ravenloft by having players stumble on a kitchen filled with butchered human parts. A much more effective approach is if the players eat food prepared by the hags (perhaps they have shapeshifter to present themselves as inn keepers or something), they slowly get hints and signs that what they eaten may have been human (and perhaps they never get confirmation). That is how these more visceral types of horror would play out in classic Ravenloft I think. But you still need those unnerving things there for that kind of horror to work.

With Falkovnia, I think as the line went on that got more explicit, and the line itself, like all of TSR in the late 90s, was playing catch up to Vampire, and I remember feeling a shift in tone, that to me seemed a bit fo a deviation from the philosophy laid out in the black box. Lots of people disagree and prefer later TSR ravenloft, but that is my feeling. By the time you have d20 Ravenloft, that just felt like White Wolf to me. So I am still calling for subtlety here. Just don't think you need to take off hints of these kinds of things completely. They still resonate. And horror isn't meant to make us feel comfortable.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Azalin lost his son and wants to get him back. Tristessa lost her child and wants to get them back. Azalin also runs the largest political region in the core, heads a secret police, founded a false religion, does magical experiments and mundane research, spies on his enemies like Strahd, repels Drakov's forces, and deals with interlopers trying to use his magic book to get their memories back all while looking for a way to get it of Ravenloft. Tristessa has what other aspects to her character? What else defines her?

But Tristessa is a banshee. She rules a domain that is more in line with Forlorn. Characters like Ivana Boritsi or Jacqueline Renier are more for doing the kinds of spying and politicking that Azalin does. He has the biggest domain, but also the least gothic horror domain of all. I literally never once used the Kargat. Lords of smaller domains, were a lot more manageable I think in general. Darkon was just too big, too fantasy oriented and Azalin felt like someone's favorite that I was supposed to like but didn't.

I do think you could have used more female lords controlling domains. You needed more female lords in general. One of the cool things about Ravenloft though is you can do that without throwing away the old stuff. It is amorphous and new domains can accrue to the core. So you can expand that greatly. If you are going to get rid of something, get rid of Darkon, change it to a mercantile empire rules by a vampire queen. That is better than the lich who drives all the worst meta plots (sorry I get passionate about this one )

Also, Tristesse may be thin (she wasn't even an entry beyond it saying she was a banshee in the original box: and later it was it was an interesting but incredibly focused character, which isn't and necessarily); but she was terrifying. Keening was one note. But what a note. Traveling through keening is one of the most harrowing things a party can do. Again this is all in service to horror, not in service to making the dark lords feel like they are more competent political leaders than other dark lords. The most interesting lords don't have what they want, and are often deeply flawed (that is why I think Drakov is more interesting than Azalin for example).

 

[Alzrius]

So you can expand that greatly. If you are going to get rid of something, get rid of Darkon, change it to a mercantile empire rules by a vampire queen.

In other words, what would have happened (mostly) if the coup attempt by Tavelia had succeeded.

 

[Bedrockgames]

In other words, what would have happened (mostly) if the coup attempt by Tavelia had succeeded.

Lol. Like I said, I had very little use for the Kargat. But if you need to, that could work (or just replace it completely so it can be washed of its D&D fantasy feel, and replace it with something based more on Italian city states.

 

[Tonguez]

Think of it this way: WotC is trying to write this book to a PG/PG-13 audience. Falkovia is a Hard R. There might be a place for a setting that handles the mature topics Falkovia embodies, but I don't believe WotC is the people to do it. They are Marvel now: toned down for general consumption. It's the price paid for it's large popularity and widespread success.

WotC is putting a primer on hard and soft limitations on horror in the book to discuss tailoring horror to the audience and respecting thier boundaries. They're not putting Holocaustville in as a setting.

I think even today the Nazi= Evil trope is still socially acceptable and that if Falkovia was explicitly set up with the idea that PCs would be fighting the Regime then audience would be fine with it.

I like Falkovia as the Humans are Monsters too set peice and really don’t want to see it devolve into Zombie apocalypse

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Imagine, if you will, you didn't have your family. If you never had your family. Would that make you evil?/

I was incredibly lonely. If anything would have driven me off the deep end it would be that.

There certainly isn't anything else I would care enough about to be tempted by "evil".