Reading Scrolls in armour

[mikebr99]

Well, Caliban... we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[kreynolds]

Otherwise you get fighters who take one level of wizard, and just prep True Strike and Feather Fall, and cast Shield, Expeditious Retreat, and Protection from Evil from scrolls.

So what's wrong with that? A single-classed 1st level wizard could make those scrolls and do the same thing anyway, provided he kept burning the appropriate XP, and provided he even had the XP to burn.

It's not like they're getting a spell off without risk, as activating the scroll draws an AoO, just like a spell.

Should all 1st level spellcasters be banned from scroll use? I don't see the validity of this arguement.

I know this because I play a fighter in Living Greyhawk who had done exactly that, due to the ruling from the Sage in the D&D FAQ.

How very noble of you to sacrifice your character for the greater good.

My 6/1 Fighter/Wizard wears +1 plate mail and a +1 shield, and casts the Shield and Protection from Evil from a scroll. His AC ranges from 24 to 34 during a fight.

Yeah, but the AC increase from those 2 spells help from a particular direction, against an evil creature, or both. That's pretty focused and definately not as powerful as a straight up AC bonus. Not undefeatable in my book, so I still don't see the problem.

 

[Caliban]

So what's wrong with that? A single-classed 1st level wizard could make those scrolls and do the same thing anyway, provided he kept burning the appropriate XP, and provided he even had the XP to burn.

It's not like they're getting a spell off without risk, as activating the scroll draws an AoO, just like a spell.

Since a Shield spell still officially provides cover, you can cast or read from a scroll without provoking an AoO while your shield is up.

Even if I don't have a shield up, I'm much less likely to be hit than a wizard would. (assuming the wizard doesn't have shield up.)

Should all 1st level spellcasters be banned from scroll use? I don't see the validity of this arguement.

I don't see the validity of your arguement. Exactly where was I talking about "all first level casters" ? I thought I was talking about a caster in plate mail. Last I checked, that wasn't "all first level casters."

A straw man arguement, and a poor one at that.

How very noble of you to sacrifice your character for the greater good.

Have you played in Living Greyhawk? Half the time my crunchy wall of dwarven flesh is the only thing standing between the rest of the party and whatever overepowered monster the module is currently throwing at us.

Yeah, but the AC increase from those 2 spells help from a particular direction, against an evil creature, or both. That's pretty focused and definately not as powerful as a straight up AC bonus. Not undefeatable in my book, so I still don't see the problem.

The point is that I already have a straight up AC bonus from my +1 Plate Mail, +1 Shield, Dodge, Mobility, and Expertise and Ring of Protection +1. Adding the slightly higher bonus from Protection from Evil and +7 AC from Shield makes him nearly unhittable. (And 99% of the opponents you fight in LG are evil.)

I was going to be doing this anyway, with 3 wizard levels and Still spell, but the scroll ruling means I only need one level of wizard and I don't need the feat. It makes it too easy, in my opinion. (And now I can pick up Improved Crit with my battleaxe at 9th level, instead of Still Spell.) I believe it should cost more to achieve this. *shrug*

(He also does a True Strike + Power Attack combo with his +1 battleaxe that's pretty sweet. )

 

[kreynolds]

I don't see the validity of your arguement. Exactly where was I talking about "all first level casters" ? I thought I was talking about a caster in plate mail. Last I checked, that wasn't "all first level casters."

There you go again. I swear, you jump to conclusions and piss-n'-moan more than my own psychopathic mother.

You find that the ability to use scrolls without requiring somatic components is overpowering in the hands of a 6/1 fighter/wizard, right? Well, requiring somatic components doesn't just "tone down" that fighter, but it hurts 1st-level single-classed wizards more than it should.

Your solution, though it may appear to "fix" the "problem", also creates another one in regards to single-classed low-level casters, because at low levels, the capability to use scrolls are one of their advantages.

A straw man arguement, and a poor one at that.

See previous answer.

Also, no, I've never played LG.

(He also does a True Strike + Power Attack combo with his +1 battleaxe that's pretty sweet. )

That's gotta hurt. *gulp*

 

[Sigma]

Nice work, Caliban!

So, what about wands? Are you counting those as spell completion as well? Otherwise, you could pull the same tricks as with a scroll and 1 level of caster, plus not have to worry about caster level checks.

 

[Caliban]

There you go again. I swear, you jump to conclusions and piss-n'-moan more than my own psychopathic mother.

Hypocrite. You jumped to the conclusion that this somehow prevents all 1st level casters from using scrolls. Hint: most first level arcane casters don't wear any armor, much less plate mail

You find that the ability to use scrolls without requiring somatic components is overpowering in the hands of a 6/1 fighter/wizard, right? Well, requiring somatic components doesn't just "tone down" that fighter, but it hurts 1st-level single-classed wizards more than it should.

Exactly how does it affect a 1st level single classed wizard? They already had to have a hand free to pull the scroll, out that's the hand they would use for any somatic components.

Your solution, though it may appear to "fix" the "problem", also creates another one in regards to single-classed low-level casters, because at low levels, the capability to use scrolls are one of their advantages.

In what way does this prevent low level casters (who aren't wearing armor) from using scrolls?

 

[Caliban]

Nice work, Caliban!

So, what about wands? Are you counting those as spell completion as well?

No, wands are Spell trigger devices, and spell trigger devices specifically do not need any finishing gestures.

Otherwise, you could pull the same tricks as with a scroll and 1 level of caster, plus not have to worry about caster level checks.

Yes, but wands are much more expensive than scrolls, and you have to be a 5th level wizard to get the feat. Scribe Scroll is a free feat for a 1st level wizard.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Your solution, though it may appear to "fix" the "problem", also creates another one in regards to single-classed low-level casters, because at low levels, the capability to use scrolls are one of their advantages.

You lost me completely there. It is common for single-classed wizards and sorcerors to have *two* hands free, and no armor to boot.

I suppose you may be assuming they need a second hand to gesture if they hold the scroll in the first? I would just allow them to gesture with the scroll in hand.

BTW, testimony that "my character does this and it seems too easy" is pretty strong anedoctal evidence. This is not some random whine about a PC or DM ruling.

 

[kreynolds]

Hypocrite.

Feeling pissy today are we?

You jumped to the conclusion that this somehow prevents all 1st level casters from using scrolls.

Wrong. I was connecting the dots. By forcing somatic components with scrolls, you impact everyone, not just your character.

Hint: most first level arcane casters don't wear any armor, much less plate mail

True. But this has any bearing on...what? See previous answer.

Exactly how does it affect a 1st level single classed wizard? They already had to have a hand free to pull the scroll, out that's the hand they would use for any somatic components.

Do they always need to have a hand free to hold the scroll? No. Most of the time? Yes. Always? No.

In what way does this prevent low level casters (who aren't wearing armor) from using scrolls?

It doesn't "prevent" them from using scrolls, but it needlessly hampers them. Also, see previous answer.

 

[kreynolds]

You lost me completely there.

That's fine. I wasn't talking to you.

It is common for single-classed wizards and sorcerors to have *two* hands free, and no armor to boot.

I suppose you may be assuming they need a second hand to gesture if they hold the scroll in the first? I would just allow them to gesture with the scroll in hand.

BTW, testimony that "my character does this and it seems too easy" is pretty strong anedoctal evidence. This is not some random whine about a PC or DM ruling.

See previous post.