Reading Scrolls in armour

kreynolds said:


Feeling pissy today are we?

*shrug* You started it, so stop whining.

Wrong. I was connecting the dots. By forcing somatic components with scrolls, you impact everyone, not just your character.

Please describe exactly what impact you imagine this has. (And I guarantee that whatever you think it is, it won't "ban scroll use from all 1st level casters". Sheesh, talk about jumping to conclusions.)

As far as I can tell, it has exactly zero impact on an unarmored mage. It has a great impact on a heavily armored fighter who wants to pick up a level of wizard so he can cast shield.
 
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Caliban said:

I don't consider that flavor text. I think that activating a scroll should require the somatic components of the spells. Mainly for balance issues.

"I Think that activating..." Hmmmm. Doesn't this belong in the House Rules Forum? :)


due to the ruling from the Sage in the D&D FAQ.

Hmm it,s in the FAQ? Ok, now I know it belongs there. :D

Metalsmith
 

Caliban said:

No, wands are Spell trigger devices, and spell trigger devices specifically do not need any finishing gestures.

Yeah but you have to gesture with wands, wave 'em around and stuff. Or at least I Think you do. :rolleyes:

See it says on page 206 you have to point it at the general direction of the target. Seems like you have to wave it around to me. Uh Huh, Uh Huh, looks pretty somaticly to me, Uh Huh, Uh Huh. :p :rolleyes:

Metalsmith
 
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Caliban said:

As far as I can tell, it has exactly zero impact on an unarmored mage. It has a great impact on a heavily armored fighter who wants to pick up a level of wizard so he can cast shield.

Except the Wizard or Sorcerer that gets delegated the lantern holdding job cause everyone else is gripping their weapons or shields or musical instuments.
Lets see, Lantern in Left hand, Scroll in the Right, Read, Somantic Component (according to Caliban), Rip/Spell Failure. :p

Great another 25 gold down the drain.

Metalsmith
 

Metalsmith said:


Yeah but you have to gesture with wands, wave 'em around and stuff. Or at least I Think you do. :rolleyes:

See it says on page 206 you have to point it at the general direction of the target. Seems like you have to wave it around to me. Uh Huh, Uh Huh, looks pretty somaticly to me, Uh Huh, Uh Huh. :p :rolleyes:

Metalsmith

Your not too bright, are you?
 

Bright, See!

Caliban said:


Your not too bright, are you?


Whooooo Meeeeeeee?
Yup, Yup, Yup, I'm one sharp Crayon, I'm one of them Hunnertand-Fiffy Whatt Boulbs! So you could say I'm kina Bright.

Awww I git it now, those are Fightn werds! Ima going put down this here Chicken and you best put yore dukes up sone! Darn tootin!

Caliban said:

My 6/1 Fighter/Wizard wears +1 plate mail and a +1 shield, and casts the Shield and Protection from Evil from a scroll. His AC ranges from 24 to 34 during a fight.

Yawp tats what I like ta see, Convictions, Principles, (and other 5 dollah werds like that) You should stan by em. Just like yaw'r doing?

Metalsmith :rolleyes:
 
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The additional strange thing about the FAQ ruling is the existence of the core item called the caster's shield, a shield with a spell on the back "as on a scroll". One of the specific rules written for it is that "the user can cast the spell inscribed on the back of the shield with no chance of arcane spell failure due to the shield" (DMG p. 183).

The implication would seem to be that normally shields do contribute arcane spell failure when reading scrolls; it seems like that's an advantage that disappears from the item with the given FAQ ruling on scrolls-in-armor.
 
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dcollins said:
The additional strange thing about the FAQ ruling is the existence of the core item called the caster's shield, a shield with a spell on the back "as on a scroll". One of the specific rules written for it is that "the user can cast the spell inscribed on the back of the shield with no chance of arcane spell failure due to the shield" (DMG p. 183).

The implication would seem to be that normally shields do contribute arcane spell failure when reading scrolls; it seems like that's an advantage that disappears from the item with the given FAQ ruling on scrolls-in-armor.

Nice catch! :)

My take on it:

1) Spell Completion Items provoke AoOs just like spells.

2) Spell Completion Items force the user to "perform the short, simple, finishing parts of the spell casting (the final gestures, words, and so on)".

I do not hear anyone claiming that you can use a scroll in a Silence spell area. The word "words" here means speaking not reading since you do not read when casting normal spells. Since the word "words" means speaking or verbal component, the word "gestures" must mean somatic.

The only component not mentioned at all (in this section) is material.

And the phrase "perform the short, simple, finishing parts of the spell casting" quite clearly states that you are casting a spell.

3) "The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spell casting." This seems fairly clear. No studying beforehand as with normal spells.

4) "Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll." "Deciphering a scroll to determine its contents does not activate its magic unless it is a specially prepared cursed scroll."

These two sentences together reinforce that just reading the scroll silently does not activate it. You must read it out loud.

5) dcollins' find of the Caster's Shield reinforces that somatic components are required for scrolls since the Caster's Shield allows casting of a scribed spell "with no chance of arcane spell failure due to the shield".

6) Spell Trigger items explicitly call out that they are simpler than Spell Completion items and do not require gestures, merely speaking a single word. Again, the use of the word gestures when discussing spell completion items implies Somatic component.

7) The definition of Spell Preparation in the PHB explicitly calls out that most of the preparation (just like with a scroll) is done ahead of time (i.e. during study) and that the caster merely "finishes the casting with the appropriate spell components - a few special words, some complex gestures, a specific item, or a combination of the three".

This is virtually identical to the description of casting a spell from a Spell Completion item (both in the DMG and in the PHB glossary) with the exception that it includes the possible material component which is explicitly dropped for scrolls (in several places in the books due to it being used up during scroll creation).


Taking any one of these bits of information is not overly compelling in and of itself, but looking at them all together is much more compelling than the no somatic side of the fence. So, based on what little information is in the DMG and PHB, using a scroll is the same as casting a spell except no material components and no studying ahead of time.

Verbal and Somatic components are part of casting the spell from the scroll.

The power of the scroll (i.e. DC of any spell) is determined by the preparation (i.e. creation) process, not the caster using it.
 

Caliban said:
*shrug* You started it, so stop whining.

Yes, I did start it. It was all in good fun. But you don't know how to have fun. You don't know a joke when you see one. You feel it necessary to behave like an ass when it isn't necessary. So you don't give a damn if someone is being jovial? You just decide to be a jerk about it anyway? No problem. I'll remember that.

What I do find amusing, however, is watching you get all caught up in a tissy over nothing. LOL Now that's entertaining.
 

kreynolds said:


Yes, I did start it. It was all in good fun. But you don't know how to have fun. You don't know a joke when you see one. You feel it necessary to behave like an ass when it isn't necessary. So you don't give a damn if someone is being jovial? You just decide to be a jerk about it anyway? No problem. I'll remember that.

What I do find amusing, however, is watching you get all caught up in a tissy over nothing. LOL Now that's entertaining.

Please don't harsh on Caliban.
 

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