Realistic Consequences vs Gameplay

Fair enough. I just wanted to give a warning to someone who might want to run it that it is a specific type of play.
That's fair. Even were I to run CoS, which I am familiar with for 5th, I'd have to overhaul it a little to match my style. I suspect that those DEM elements are there because a lot of D&D DMs don't really have strong skills when it comes to running horror, or at least aren't assumed to have them, so it's more in the way of support, so that the results of OoB play more or less match what it says on the tin.
 

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For me personally modern adventures can be useful, but I have to gut out all the assumptions of what the PCs will or should do to get back to a module - just situation.
 


For me personally modern adventures can be useful, but I have to gut out all the assumptions of what the PCs will or should do to get back to a module - just situation.

While I'm pretty good at guessing what the PCs will do when they have a goal in front of them, I'm not very good at all at guessing what they'll do when they don't. If I know the situation/s, though, I can improvise in-session and adjust out.
 

While I'm pretty good at guessing what the PCs will do when they have a goal in front of them, I'm not very good at all at guessing what they'll do when they don't. If I know the situation/s, though, I can improvise in-session and adjust out.

Mostly I do not want to guess what they will have their characters do. I want to find out. I do not design challenges with a solution in mind. I just try to keep things interesting and dynamic.

If I establish an orc tribe that is raiding a local village I largely do not care if the characters kill them, negotiate with them, hire them, or join them. I just want to see how they will approach it and see how it turns out.
 

Mostly I do not want to guess what they will have their characters do. I want to find out. I do not design challenges with a solution in mind. I just try to keep things interesting and dynamic.

If I establish an orc tribe that is raiding a local village I largely do not care if the characters kill them, negotiate with them, hire them, or join them. I just want to see how they will approach it and see how it turns out.

Mostly, I know these characters well enough (as the players are playing them, anyway) that they're pretty predictable from my POV. It's not as though I have any real preference what they do or how they do it. If they want to talk their way past some ogres, that's fine; if they want to fight those same ogres, that's fine, too. Note I said "when they have a goal in front of them." If I know what's motivating them in a given situation, their responses are predictable.

Being able to predict their behavior is more about knowing what needs prepped. If I have a tribe of orcs raiding a local village, I'll prep the orcs for a number of solutions; given that orcs in my setting are more reasonable than the default, and the characters have knowledge of this, I wouldn't necessarily expect them to just set out to kill the orcs. It has nothing to do with any preference on my end for how they handle those orcs (though joining them in raiding the village would be ... unusual for either of the parties I'm DMing for).

It's also not exactly about predicting the approach they'll take to doing whatever they do. If they decide to try to negotiate with the Hypothetical Orcs, I don't know or care to predict how they'll go about doing so; likewise if they decide to fight them. If I put [PROBLEM] between the party and their goal, I know they're going to try to solve it, but the how is a mystery to me (aside from knowing the players and characters pretty well).
 

if the PCs are seeking out an Assassins' guildhouse and their info-gathering puts it in Cheapside Way, on reaching Cheapside Way the DM is fully free to narrate something like:

"Cheapside Way is a fairly short street with only 5 or 6 things on each side, running east and downhill from the South Market toward the docks. On the north side starting from your position there's a Butcher, a Leatherworker's shop (maybe? the sign's hard to read), a Curio shop, a building that's probably an orphanage, and a small Temple to [deity]. On the south side nearest you there's a small shop selling meat pies and such, then a Clothier, a Glassblower, a Carpenter's workspace and shop, an unmarked building that could be a private residence, and a knockabout pub called the Wit and Wisdom."

So now there's an orphanage in play. Is it relevant? It it window dressing? Is it a red herring? The DM knows where the guildhouse is (the Curio shop is a front for it, and they use the Wit and Wisdom as a meeting and contact point) but the players/PCs have to figure it out - quite possibly at some risk if the Assassins realize there's some people poking around who shouldn't be....
<gloss over responses from @Ovinomancer with which I largely agree>
This seems to run counter to your claim yesterday that your style of game is virtually impossible to distinguish from a prepped game as far as verisimilitude goes. What you call dross, I see as a rich tapestry of detail intended to draw the player into the world, rather than to mislead them.

I'm fully willing to accept that your idea of verisimilitude might be different from mine. There's nothing wrong with that. Different people enjoy different styles of play. However, I'm more confident than ever that I'd be able to easily tell the difference.
I fundamentally disagree that their intent is to confuse. They are there to add a sense of depth to the world.

Additionally, there's no reason that they need to be red herrings at all. The shops carry goods, offering an opportunity to resupply. The proprietors might also have need of, or information for, a group of adventurers. They're only red herrings if you choose not to put in the most minimal effort (which can include coming up with details only improvisationally, as needed, when the players choose to engage with a particular element).
My take on this is that what Lanefan describes does not lead to verisimiitude or immersion.

When I think of village scenes, I think perhaps of The Prancing Pony in LotR, but even more I think of the village in Yojimbo. That is brought to life by the dynamics of the situation, and a couple of locations with colourful "backdrop" NPCs eg the coffin-maker.

Lanefan is providing a tactical read out. I don't feel that it establishes verisimilitude or depth at all.

The idea of shops as "quest-givers" also doesn't add depth in my view. Because it implies (i) PCs who have nothing more going on in their lives then the quest for quests, and (ii) NPCs whose live revolves around being participants in an adventure game rather than actually living their own real lives.
 
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Which is actually a problem IMO, in that by your descriptions you in effect lead the players by the nose to what's important - or important in your view. Soft railroad, maybe?

I mean, it's Temple of Elemental Evil. If you run away, the area around Verbobonc is pretty well naughty word.

As DM I've had entire adventures spawn from players latching on to an irrelevancy and running away with it.

Well, there's spinning adventure out of something, and there's giving endless, detailed descriptions of things that you're not gonna take anywhere because you don't care and aren't going to. The latter is what I'm talking about. The former is what the last year of the ToEE campaign has been (they let Big Z out, after which there is precious little guidance).
 

If I am saying my characters does X how is that action not rooted in the fiction? I'm also not quite sure what a non-genre appropriate PC action looks like. Now I think you mean something more specific or nuanced by that statement but I can't tell what it is.
I'm sure there have been other replies to this by now, but I'll give mine. It will consist of a few examples.

(1) There is a big literature about "trying' in the philoso;hy of action and related areas of academic inquiry. For instance, most people woud say that a human being can't try and jump to the moon, because to try means to have some sort of intention, and no one can genuinely form an intention to jump to the moon (as opposed to, say, jumping as high as s/he can) because everyone knows it literally cannot be done. (Maybe there are some people with radical cognitive problems who don't realise the moon can't be jumped to. Let's put them to one side, because in a RPG few if any people are playing PCs with such problems.)

This is why, upthread, I've referred to "genuine" or "sincere" action intentions, because I think action declaratoins like "I talk the dragon into giving me its treasure" are freuently going to be non-genuine or insincere. (That one is also ill-formed - it doesn't actually specify an action that the PC undertakes, it only describes an intention - but that's a further issue.)

(2) An example of a non-genre appropriate action declaration is given by Luke Crane in the Buring Wheel rulebook, when he mentions searching for beam weaponry in the Duke's toilet as something that is impermissible. Likewise in a typical cowboy story I try and outrun the horse is not genre-appropriate (whereas in a supers game it may well be).

One of the "problems" with high level D&D - which came up in your example of angels carrying someone across a gorge - is that the genre and hence the appropriateness of action declarations is often confused or at least uncertain. Cany the player of a high-level fighter declare I swim through the lake for an hour like Beowulf did?

Under the broad label of "genre" we could also put action declarations that are contrary to the spirit of the game. Eg given the importance of treasure-acquisition in a lot of standard/traditional D&D play, action declarations like I search the village well for a holy avenger will probably be inappropriate, and obviousluy so, and the GM can safely ignore or dismiss them. They are attempts to endrun around or completely ignore a basic premise of gameplay.

(3) That example leads into the idea of action declarations that follow from the fiction. Of course if the PCs have been following a series of clues and defeating a series of opponents that have led them to the village well as the most likely hiding place of the holy avenger they need to defeat the whatever-it-is, then the above action declarations would not be deviant or genre/premise-breaking. Because it would clearly follow from the fiction.

If you read through this thread you'll see that a lot of the "counter-examples" to a flexible/non-pre-scripted approach to adjudicating NPC responses - like dragons and merchants who give away their hoards at the first request - are ones that (a) violate genre/gamepay premise or (b) do not follow from the fiction or (c) both.

To finish this post, I'll give two examples from my own play that show how I use genre/premise and the fiction to "gateeep" action declarations:

(A) In my 4e D&D game, from time to time the players would declare that their PCs search a room for treasure, even though there was nothing to suggest that there might be treasure there. They were just engaging a FRPG reflex. Normally I would just tell them they find nothing; occasionally if I had something on my treasure parcel list that didn't already have a "place" in the unfolding fiction I might tell them they find it.

I never regarded this as very singificant - 4e D&D, with its treasure pacel system and as we played it - is not primarily a game of searching for treasure (cf, say, Moldvay Basic) and essentially random or ungrounded looking-for-treasure action declarations don't have to be taken seriously.

(B) In one of my Cortex+ Heroic Fantasy games, the PCs were lost in a dungeon after having been teleported away by a Crypt Thing (mechanically they were subject to a d12 Lost in the Dungeon complication). I described a chamber with strange runes (a Strange Runes scene distinction). One of the players had his PC read the runes, with the intention of seeing if they would tell him something about where he was in the dungeon. A successful check (that, mechanically, incorporated that scene disntction) established that they did indeed provide information about the dungeon, so he was able to eliminate the complication on his PC.

That's an example of an action declaration that followed from the fiction, and was appropriate to genre and to gameplay premise. If the game was classic D&D, it would be quite different - the GM would be expected to establish in advance what the meaning of the strange runes is, and recovering from being lost after Crypt Thing teleportation would be a dungeon-crawling-and-mapping challenge.
 
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What makes a game feel realm, what makes it tangible - something we can feel and touch, depends a lot on how we see the world. For me having a character who lives a full life with meaningful roots in the community, existing relationships they can depend on, and the ability to develop a sense of mastery over their environment are what make a game tangible.

When I run a game I see myself as a Master of Ceremonies, a facilitator that enables meaningful play. I make the game feel real by helping players to develop connections to the setting through their characters. Since I have a limited amount of time I focus on the details that are directly relevant to their characters as much as I can tell. That means I do a good amount of just in time establishing of fictional details.

I consider that a better deal than the opposite where a lot of effort is spent on details that are not relevant to the lives of the characters we are playing. I have often in more modern D&D felt like something of a space alien. I have no idea where anything is, no meaningful connections, and am constantly a fish out of water. The more constrained sandboxes designed for play seen in OSR games feel far more real to me than the Forgotten Realms or some massive home brew setting.

Roleplaying games are subjective aesthetic experiences. What works for one group of people might not work for another.
 

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