Realistic Consequences vs Gameplay

My wording "wrong conclusion" was echoing the post I was quoting. A better phrase than "come to the wrong conclusion" is "make mistakes." If the PCs can never make mistakes--if (as an example that I'm not saying anyone is running or advocating) you're running something that looks like a mystery but the murderer is the person the PCs decide it is, then at least one consequence (wrongly accusing someone) is off the table, innit?
Isn't this what action resolution is for?

if the state of the fiction is the same no matter what they choose, their choices don't make any difference.
But no one in this thread - literally no one - has advocated for this, nor has anyone said anything that implies it.

If--to refer back to the example I was responding to--the PCs don't do the research to find the sewer entrance to the castle, they don't find it, and they probably end up facing (and probably fighting) a competent guard force
I don't see what this has to do at all with making mistakes or making wrong choices. If the PC enter through the sewer that's one sort of fiction. If they fight the guards that's a different sort of fiction. I don't see what this has to do with difficulty or with making mistakes.
 

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Isn't this what action resolution is for?

Action resolution is for resolving actions. It's not about making decisions (except in specific cases where it specifically is). Deciding to sneak by the guard is not the same thing as resolving the attempt to do so.

I don't see what this has to do at all with making mistakes or making wrong choices. If the PC enter through the sewer that's one sort of fiction. If they fight the guards that's a different sort of fiction. I don't see what this has to do with difficulty or with making mistakes.

The only way it has anything to do with making a mistake is if the PCs don't want to fight the guards, or if they would prefer to enter quietly. There was some discussion as to whether it was good scenario design to have the fight at the gate look impossible, or whether it was attempting to guide the PCs to a preferred alternative; my position is that it can be good design, and it doesn't have to involve any GM preferences, but it could be bad and there could be some rails coming into play. The only relevant mistake to be made would arguably be a failure to look for the sewer entrance if the PCs wanted to get in without interacting with the guards on the gate.
 

Calling it 'the fight at the gate' also presupposes that there isn't a way to get past the gate without fighting, which I would assume is possible in most cases. Aside from the gate being locked down or some such, I can't picture a fictional frame where there wouldn't at least be some opportunity to get past the gate using trickery or stealth.
 

Calling it 'the fight at the gate' also presupposes that there isn't a way to get past the gate without fighting, which I would assume is possible in most cases. Aside from the gate being locked down or some such, I can't picture a fictional frame where there wouldn't at least be some opportunity to get past the gate using trickery or stealth.

Absolutely. "The fight at the gate" wasn't specifically meant to convey that fighting was the only way past the gate, though I guess phrasing it that way is a little sloppy. More broadly, if the scenario is designed so that getting in without fighting the guards is as difficult as fighting the guards--whether that means researching the sewer entrance, climbing the walls, talking/sneaking past the guards--then you have options open to the party. If a party chooses a method of entry that doesn't play to their strengths, then that's arguably a mistake.
 

Its so difficult to get a read on exactly what is happening under the hood during play with the way some folks talk about their games.

When I post an excerpt of play from one of my games, I don't think people can mistake exactly what is happening under the hood during play.

It would go a long way toward clarity if people posted excerpts of what is happening during a moment of play in a way that captures (a) the actual GMing ethos of play and how that intersects with the framing of the situation at hand, (b) the resolution machinery, (c) player orientation toward the situation (habitation of their PC to the fiction, their personal cognitive workspace when managing the demands of the actual game component, and how their action declarations interface with all of the prior) that undergirds how play is propelled from one gamestate to the next.

People have this tendency to zoom out, abstract a too-large-chunk, post a transcript of play like they're actually writing fiction, and invariably elide all kinds of details with statements like "and then we made some rolls". "Made some rolls" or "make a roll" (or any variation thereof) couldn't be less helpful. That leaves respondents in a pretty precarious position trying to in-fill all of that elided information with presumption (or typically off-the-mark extrapolation) to sort out how gamestate 1 got to gamestate 2 got to gamestate 3. The lead post is a good example of this (which is why, in another thread, I requested a much higher resolution post-mortem of the play transcript).

Please, when anyone is posting an actual excerpt of play, or even a hypothetical one, meaty, precise information about how and why a gamestate evolved is extremely important to having these kinds of discussions. Focus on a very small chunk of play like a laser beam and give good information on how it evolved to its next state.
 

Action resolution is for resolving actions. It's not about making decisions (except in specific cases where it specifically is). Deciding to sneak by the guard is not the same thing as resolving the attempt to do so.
I find this a strange statement. Action are what drives the fiction -- nothing else does except, perhaps, a GM just telling you a story. And, I agree, the decision to sneak past a guard is not the same as trying to do so. However, in game, as a GM, I really don't care at all about your decision on what to do because I do not adjudicate that and the fiction in play doesn't address or reflect this. Only the action to do so actually matters in play.

And, if the action is being tested, and the GM isn't using Force to drive to a desired outcome, then we have failure and wrongness in action resolution -- I don't necessarily have to add it in prep (you can, no doubt, but you don't have to). By not using Force I mean that the GM will narrate a failure state for the action on a failure and a success state on the action if it succeeds and not have those be the same because the GM wishes the action to succeed or fail.

For the guard, let's say the player decides they want to sneak past. Cool, I don't have anything to do with this as a GM and it doesn't task me to narrate new fiction. What does is when the player starts declaring actions for their character to actually do the deed. Likely, there will be a few actions declared that I let auto-succeed, like moving through the town to where the guard is and taking up a starting locations. This is action resolution, even if it's usually handled very informally, because the GM has to decide if it occurs like asked or if mechanics need to be involved or if it fails due to notes or whatever. Then we get to where the PC ties to sneak past the guard. However the GM chooses to adjudicate this (multiple rolls, different ability checks for different parts, one roll, whatever), the crux is that the fiction that occurs on a success will be different from the fiction on a failure. You might use succeed at a cost for the fail state, in which case the fictional difference is the cost. You may use a hard move and have a failure be discovery and an alarm, or some state between. What should NOT happen is that the fail state and success state be the same. That's an example GM Force -- the outcome is fixed regardless of player input.

So, yeah, I don't follow you when you suggest that action resolution cannot result in failures, mistakes, or being wrong (in the case of attempted social encounters, or trap disarming, or knowing something, etc). Action resolution is a great tool for finding out PCs are wrong or have made a mistake. It doesn't have to be written in the GM's notes (although that's a perfectly valid approach).


The only way it has anything to do with making a mistake is if the PCs don't want to fight the guards, or if they would prefer to enter quietly. There was some discussion as to whether it was good scenario design to have the fight at the gate look impossible, or whether it was attempting to guide the PCs to a preferred alternative; my position is that it can be good design, and it doesn't have to involve any GM preferences, but it could be bad and there could be some rails coming into play. The only relevant mistake to be made would arguably be a failure to look for the sewer entrance if the PCs wanted to get in without interacting with the guards on the gate.
I think a lot of people have said it could go either way depending on circumstance. And, I don't see how it's the player's mistake if the GM frames only the gate and doesn't provide indications that the sewer might exist. That's a GM mistake. Not a horrible, end of game, terrible no good one, but the GM is responsible for outlining the basic options of play in scene framing in 5e. This is a critical duty because the players cannot introduce new fiction, only the GM can, so it's the responsibility of the GM to make sure relevant fictional pathways are at least available through foreshadowing even if not immediately presented as obvious. Failure to do so means the players are not in the position of having to guess if there's another route the GM has prepped at all times because the GM will not present it unless you ask the right questions. I get that a lot of people play this way, and that's fine, so long as they're having fun doing so. However, fundamentally, when you look at the roles and authorities of the GM, this is only ever their fault, even as it's often placed on the players for not being thorough or asking the right questions.

Oddly, I think this is much less true to not true at all for other games so much as it is for 5e (or other D&D). The more the players can propose new fiction and the more the GM is constrained in resolution of action declarations, the less necessary it is to provide the options in framing. I could frame a heavily guarded gate in other systems and be comfortable not providing any other avenues because the players can create them with action declarations. I can challenge those through action resolution, but if they succeed, that fiction is true. If not, well, it's not true, or at least not true they way that they wanted.
 

Leaving aside the philosophies for a moment, it seems to me that in the real world it's impossible to turn lead to gold via alchemy but that didn't stop anyone from trying.

Going back to those philosophies - I would say they are wrong. I think that from our perspective Failure can never be 100% certain and so to us there is always some miniscule chance of success in whatever endeavor we try - and even moreso in an RPG featuring real magic and gods.



More importantly, I don't think you can judge what is actually genuine or sincere for another. I think the issue really stems from that philosophy of yours.

Also a minor quibble, "I talk the dragon into giving me its treasure" did specify an action. "talk" is an action. That said, it's a vague action in that context as "talk" can take a great many forms and that vagueness makes it difficult to fill in interesting details about the Dragon's reaction.



Yes, I'm not familiar with that game, but I believe it's one where the elements the player introduces can actually come to be in the fiction. Which is why they must limit themselves to genre appropriate statements. In 5e though where the DM is final arbiter of the fiction, and so you can say I look in the toilet for beam weaponry all you want and you will never find any. All it does in the fiction is make your character look like a crazy loon.



That definitely makes it challenging to run but the DM is still final arbiter and so it's also easier in some respects.



Which is why the notion of auto-failure is so important in such games. In any game where the DM serves as final arbiter then being able to declare auto-failure is essential to maintaining the appropriate genre.



I think what you are calling "follow from the fiction" is actually "follow from the established fiction". IMO that is an important distinction.



I think there's a great deal of mislabeling examples because people are trying to force them to fit into one of those options. Speaking of - violate gameplay premise is a concept I think I was the first to introduce in this thread as a plausible alternative for explaining why a dragon giving away it's horde still shouldn't be an option in a no/low-prep D&D game.



That's a problem I've solved just by asking them to be more specific about where and how they are searching.



If that PC's action can be used to establish something important about the Dungeon that wasn't previously established then I'm not sure how it followed from the fiction in any sense other than how any arbitrary action that is attempted by a PC always follows from the fiction.

I guess where I'm at is that I don't distinguish there to be any meaningful difference between a PC action inventing strange runes to tell him where in the dungeon he is and a PC action establishing that the strange runes you just found are for that purpose.
I'm confused. Genre appropriateness has been presented as an input into GM adjudication of action in the sense of if it's not present the GM can fail the declaration without engaging the action. Like, not allowing someone to find a ray gun in the baron's closet, or asking a dragon to give away it's horde. These are not genre appropriate to a 5e game and so the GM can use that heuristic to not consider them and fail them without consideration. You say that genre appropriateness isn't a useful test of action declarations because there's no requirement for the player to adhere to genre in their declarations and beside, the GM can refuse those actions anyway. That seems to miss the point because there wasn't a claim that the player was beholden to genre in action declarations, but that it was a consideration for how the GM would adjudicate that action declaration -- a claim you seem to agree with at least in outcome in that non-appropriate declarations should be made to fail.

Now, that said, a player that presents genre inappropriate action declarations consistently or even just a few egregious ones will get an out-of-game discussion. In game, as in with the mechanics, there's nothing about an inappropriate declaration that isn't easily handled by refusing to allow success of the action. This holds across many game systems. Genre appropriateness is a heuristic for the GM to use in adjudicating the action. In a game like 5e, where the GM decides, it's an input to auto-success or failure (ie, if a check is even called for) or to how an ability check is resolved (what ability check, what DC, etc.). Genre-appropriateness needs to guide the narration of the result as well. It's a GM side heuristic for both determining if an action requires adjudication or refusal, and what possible narrations of the outcomes might be.

For example, if a 1st level fighter without any assistance or magic, is declared to be jumping to the moon, the GM can choose to refuse this action declaration based on being genre inappropriate. The attempt would not happen, and the GM should, at least, take a moment out-of-game to discuss it with the player as to why it was refused. The GM might also use the same-heuristic to allow the action, but declare it automatic failure, and narrate a result, like, "you try as hard as you can, but just look silly jumping up and down but only getting a few feet off the ground. In the meantime, you've made a lot of noise and, <clatter> it appears someone or something is coming to investigate. What do you do?"

If the GM has some established in the fiction reason to consider the action, then that might control. If the fighter happens to be standing where the GM has revealed that there's an environmental effect that a jumping person will be teleported to the moon, then the adjudication of this action changes. The established fiction has provided a way to avoid genre inappropriateness, and the action is consistent with that established fiction. Viola! The 1st level fighter now 'jumps' to the moon in a way that is both grounded in the fiction and is genre appropriate.
 

I find this a strange statement. Action are what drives the fiction -- nothing else does except, perhaps, a GM just telling you a story. And, I agree, the decision to sneak past a guard is not the same as trying to do so. However, in game, as a GM, I really don't care at all about your decision on what to do because I do not adjudicate that and the fiction in play doesn't address or reflect this. Only the action to do so actually matters in play.

[snip]

So, yeah, I don't follow you when you suggest that action resolution cannot result in failures, mistakes, or being wrong (in the case of attempted social encounters, or trap disarming, or knowing something, etc). Action resolution is a great tool for finding out PCs are wrong or have made a mistake. It doesn't have to be written in the GM's notes (although that's a perfectly valid approach).

If there be things that cannot be made to work, attempting one of those is a mistake. Sure, one can narrate negative results on Ability Checks (in 5E) as mistakes--it's something I do from time to time--but that's not what I was talking about. Making a mistake while disarming a trap does not mean it was a mistake to try.

I think a lot of people have said it could go either way depending on circumstance. And, I don't see how it's the player's mistake if the GM frames only the gate and doesn't provide indications that the sewer might exist. That's a GM mistake. Not a horrible, end of game, terrible no good one, but the GM is responsible for outlining the basic options of play in scene framing in 5e. This is a critical duty because the players cannot introduce new fiction, only the GM can, so it's the responsibility of the GM to make sure relevant fictional pathways are at least available through foreshadowing even if not immediately presented as obvious. Failure to do so means the players are not in the position of having to guess if there's another route the GM has prepped at all times because the GM will not present it unless you ask the right questions. I get that a lot of people play this way, and that's fine, so long as they're having fun doing so. However, fundamentally, when you look at the roles and authorities of the GM, this is only ever their fault, even as it's often placed on the players for not being thorough or asking the right questions.

In this instance, while I agree there should be some information available to the players that the sewer (or some other way in) exists, if the PCs don't look for it, that's arguably a mistake--as you point out. If they look for it and fail, that's an action resolution (possibly more than one).

Oddly, I think this is much less true to not true at all for other games so much as it is for 5e (or other D&D). The more the players can propose new fiction and the more the GM is constrained in resolution of action declarations, the less necessary it is to provide the options in framing. I could frame a heavily guarded gate in other systems and be comfortable not providing any other avenues because the players can create them with action declarations. I can challenge those through action resolution, but if they succeed, that fiction is true. If not, well, it's not true, or at least not true they way that they wanted.

I am amused, because this sort of thing happens from time to time in one or the other of my 5E campaigns, where someone will attempt something I hadn't considered. If--hypothetically--I had introduced a castle with a nigh-impregnable gate, and a player had asked about the sewer, I might think for a moment and decide that of course there's a sewer entrance, and yes it's possible (though not necessarily easy) to find it and get in that way. This is exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned the PCs doing things the GM hadn't thought of. I'll admit it's less player-facing/mechanically defined than in some other games, but to me it seems to get to a similar place.
 

If there be things that cannot be made to work, attempting one of those is a mistake. Sure, one can narrate negative results on Ability Checks (in 5E) as mistakes--it's something I do from time to time--but that's not what I was talking about. Making a mistake while disarming a trap does not mean it was a mistake to try.
Ah, you're looking for those situations where the players make a mistake in judgement in deciding on a course of action. I'd say that's an application of GM Force. Not all such applications are bad or to be avoided, but having a course of action be an automatic failure regardless of approach is a matter of Force (provided the action is grounded in the fiction (as revealed) and genre appropriate, of course). If, say, attacking the gate will result in the PC's being defeated, no matter what, with the intent that the PCs are forced into other options and this isn't made absolutely clear in framing, then this is an error on the GM's part, not the players.

I have no problem with a situation that's well framed as impossible being found to be so if the players decided to do it anyway. I do have an issue with the impossibility of the action being hidden in the GM's notes, because that's a gotcha, and I don't like gotcha play, at all.


In this instance, while I agree there should be some information available to the players that the sewer (or some other way in) exists, if the PCs don't look for it, that's arguably a mistake--as you point out. If they look for it and fail, that's an action resolution (possibly more than one).
It's only a mistake is the other available options have been determined by the GM to be failures regardless of approach. Which, if this isn't communicated, is a mistake by the GM. I don't have an issue with a gate being described as well guarded to the point of being a suicide run to attack. That's like describing a wall -- it's just a different flavor. I have issue with there being no other options or the description of the gate as suicide not being sufficiently clear. I, as GM, am not required to provide a pathway through the gate, but I shouldn't be hiding other solution paths or expecting my players to play 20 questions to find out what they are. Nor should I be playing gotcha by not providing enough details or even hiding them. It's unnecessary, and, for me, stems largely from constructing adventures in specific ways. Granted, those are well trodden ways and there are many examples of such in published adventures. But, you don't have to do it that way. You can construct meaningful and engaging challenge without hiding information by making the challenge about getting what you want rather than divining what's in the GM's notes.

I have absolutely no problem with players choosing actions that go poorly for them. I'm just going to make sure that this is either because the dice say it does or that, at the end, the players clearly see that the decision was in spite of every indication otherwise. My experience is that I can hand my players my notes, tell them things three or four times each, rent a few billboards, and they'll still find a way to screw up by the numbers. I don't have to play coy with things because they're players.


I am amused, because this sort of thing happens from time to time in one or the other of my 5E campaigns, where someone will attempt something I hadn't considered. If--hypothetically--I had introduced a castle with a nigh-impregnable gate, and a player had asked about the sewer, I might think for a moment and decide that of course there's a sewer entrance, and yes it's possible (though not necessarily easy) to find it and get in that way. This is exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned the PCs doing things the GM hadn't thought of. I'll admit it's less player-facing/mechanically defined than in some other games, but to me it seems to get to a similar place.
So long as there's a different outcome on a failure, cool. I do this kind of thing all the time in 5e. The system is not well set up for it, and will fight you if you try to use it as a common resolution, but there's a lot of cases where you can let the players introduce new fiction and things work fine. Ultimately, though, 5e is GM decides, and that structure means that player attempting to introduce new fiction is always at the mercy of the GM, which is not conducive to the player's being able to rely on a consistent adjudication if the GM is rejecting introductions not through the mechanics but through their authority. Unreliable mechanics like that are critically based on table dynamics and trust -- it's very easy to start to feel like you're playing "GM may I?"
 

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