"realistic" giant insects in d20 System

[Lonely Tylenol]

Ants farm aphids because aphids just sit there oozing food (if they didn't, they'd either explode or die of starvation). Humans take more caretaking than an ant is probably capable of handling.

 

[woodelf]

If you have access to Dragon 174, I really suggest that you read the article on giant insects in it.

The major problem is that your saying insects like most people say humans. Insects have so much diversity in form and function that is is very difficult to come up with some hard and fast rules for them.

Some beetles and roaches should get increased CON and damage and most should get a higher AC or maybe even a low DR. A very few insects should have the ability to bypass hardness of wood and softer metals (including iron). Some insects are resistant to toxins and thus should get a poison resistance score (a number which is subtracted from the ability damage) or poison immunity.

All the insects you are going to use should have one thing- very high spot, listen and search bonuses (+20 or higher). Remember that insects are not visual animals, but use other senses such as chemoreception (smell and taste- blindsense) and vibration (tremorsense). Their faceted eyes allow them to see motion much better than us and should get a bonus to initative.

If you give me some idea of what you are going to be using, I can give you a much better answer. I am studying invertebrate zoology at the moment and have several books on entomology. Or if you want some suggestions beyond the typical giant ant nest and preying mantids, I have a lot.

I'm actually perfectly aware that there's at least as much variety in insects (never mind other arthropods) as in the whole vertebrate world put together. My intention is to put giant insects of some sort in the Genie's Anvil (in Al Qadim--particularly hot and dry desert, pretty much inhospitable to normal animals, or people without magic) as pseudo-plausible mundane inhabitants (and a good challenge ,of course). My first thought was ants, or maybe termites (in mounds that'd be, what, a couple thousand feet tall?). I want to use something that doesn't seem deadly at first, so i'm shying away from scorpions [yes, i know those aren't insects]. And, played at all reasonably, antlions and trapdoor spiders would be too deadly--the first time they'd find out about them would be when a PC or 2 were grabbed. But, if you have a better idea, shoot.

Thanks for remembering the Dragon #--i couldn't remember which issue it was, and was meaning to dig it out. It's not so much their general capabilities, or how strong, that i'm having a problem with--i'm reasonably well-versed in those things--it's how to translate some of the key concepts into D20 System terms. Like their resilience--i like the idea of hevay fortification, or just crit immunity (given the distribution of neurological and sensory functions, the multitude of limbs, the simplicity of internal organs, and the exoskeleton, i don't think it'd be much of a stretch to say that insects just don't have the sorts of vital spots that crits represent). And maybe stack that with DR, but leave AC and hps more-or-less the same? It's not that there's "more life" to them, just that it's harder to do any telling damage? Or should they be relatively easy to hit (low AC), but hard to damage (DR)? Or easy to damage, but it just doesn't matter (tons of hp)?

Also, the comment on senses is a good one--i'd planned on blindsense/tremorsense, especially if i use ants, but hadn't thought about boosting spot/listen. Particularly cool, sense i've got a couple masters of stealth in the group [evil grin]. What are mound-building termites' senses like? Also, i'm thinking more dog-sized, rather than pony-sized, ants/termites--i just like the feel better. Plus, they can pile on top of each other so that 3x as many can gang up on one human.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

An insects antannae can be incredibly sensetive, Scent makes sense for many insect types.

Giving them the Diehard feat This plus making them immune to Massive Damage can make the pretty darned tough.

By the way, Woodelf - Are you the same person who used to have Woodelf's RPG Index? The page is still up I see, but it has been a long time between updates. Given how long it has been running (On a college server no less!) I am surprised that it is still there.

The Auld Grump

 

[Celebrim]

I just happened to be married to an entomologist. What do you want to know?

Some sorts of odd giant insects:

Phasmodia: "The Walking Sticks" Real versions of these get up to two feet long. Some species emmit noxious chemicals, somewhat like a skunk. Others have defensive barbs on thier hind legs. All have a powerful bite. In Cloud Giant scale, these insects could get up to 6' long. In titan scaled world, they could get up to 20' long. Phasmodia are known for thier chamoflage abilities. Bigger ones could try to mimic fallen logs or entire leafless trees. Phasmodia are not carnivorus, but outbreaks of them can reach plague levels in subartic forests. They are voracious leaf consumers.

Hemiptera: "The True Bugs" Real versions get up to 5 inches in length. Most are plant feeders but a few are carnivorous. All have peircing mouth parts like syringes, so blood drain in a monstrous hemiptera is a real possibility. Commonly refered to as stink bugs, most can emit a noxious smell from special glands to drive away predators. Some are aquatic. A cloud giant sized bug would only be about 1' long, but a titan scaled hemiptera could be up to 4' long.

Grylloblattodea: "The Ice Bugs" A strange group of ice dwelling insects - cold resistance would be appropriate. You could also possibly turn them into some sort of quasi-elemental creature. They generally die if the temperature gets much above freezing. In the real world, they are generally quite small - no more than an 1 1/2 in length, so even the ones living with Frost Giants wouldn't be that big, but you could concievably scale them up into something monsterous if need be. Personally, I think that they are wierd enough that even a 3' long one would send me running. They have long antenna that give them blindsight, and biting mouthparts.

Mecoptera: "The Scorpion Flies" Recognizable by thier oversized stinger like genetilia, the scorpion flies are active predators of smaller soft bodied prey and scavenge on just about anything including corpses. They are something of the vultures of the insect world and thier appearance and habits make them excellent candidates for making particularly vile and evil creatures. Some species drag corpses of dead insects over thier eggs so that thier larva will be able to feed on them. It's possible that monstrous versions would have necromatic qualities.

Siphonaptera: "The Fleas" Fleas are the champion jumpers of the animal world, capable of leaping up to 150 times there body length. The largest fleas are about 1/2" long, which means that even a monstrous flea might not be more than 5" in length. This makes fleas excellent candidates for monstrous fast moving swarms (+30 jump checks). A swarm of rat sized fleas presents a horrific foe. Fleas are blood suckers. Fleas are actually mildly poisonous, and inject a venom which causes itching (DEX damage) and which is a decoagulant (bleeding wounds). They are also disease vectors, most notably of the black death.

I would model an insects durability with DR and fortification. I'd also give them the ability to stagger on even at negative h.p., and all insects should get the Endurance feat for free because they basically little organic machines and they'll trundle on regardless of discomfort, missing limbs, or whatever. But they don't actually have that high of general CON IMO, so don't overdo it. Typically, a virus will come along and wipe out a generation of insects almost completely, and thier poison resistance is exaggerated. They are actually more sensitive to poisons than people - the problem is that you do want to dump something into the environment that is less than like 50 times as poisonous to them as it is to us, because we're atop the food chain. What insects do have is a heavily armored flexible body containing relatively few vulnerable systems and very small brains. Unless the exoskeleton is actually breached, they are just about unkillable and they can withstand alot of pressure. Trying to kill a cockroach by standing on it is pointless. You might consider making it so that half of all bludgeoning damage that they took was converted into non-lethal damage after DR was applied. Most of the time when people hit an insect, all they've really done is stun it. If you don't see guts, it isn't dead.

But even that isn't true in general. Some insects are soft bodied and really really fragile. I can't really give specific advice on insects as a whole.

 

[Algolei]

The one i'm wondering about is insects' ability to take a lot of punishment and keep functioning. Part of this is their simple nervous systems, and not much of a brain. Part of this is simply toughness and resilience, due to their differing construction. The question is, would it be best to model this with more hitpoints? Really high Con? DR? High AC? Fast Healing? Something else?

Well, undead have no nervous systems, and that's covered by their d12 HD and bonus Toughness feat. They also have no Con scores. Since insects do still have nervous systems, and obviously need Con scores to live, perhaps giving them d10 HD and/or the bonus Toughness feat would suffice.

(Note that the average difference between d12 and d10 HD is 1 hit point, which would also be covered sufficiently simply by raising insects' Con by +2.)

 

[DMH]

sort in the Genie's Anvil (in Al Qadim--particularly hot and dry desert, pretty much inhospitable to normal animals, or people without magic)

Is it a sand desert or rocky/soil desert? Both have beetles, ants and flies (some with the most interesting survival mechanisms), but the latter will have more diversity and more orders. I would not use termites unless there is some form of usable cellulose in the area and lots of it.

You give me an idea of the desert's makeup and I have several examples of each to draw from.

Like their resilience--i like the idea of hevay fortification, or just crit immunity (given the distribution of neurological and sensory functions...

I wouldn't say that at all. They do have specialized sensory organs and one can easily deafen those that can hear by breaking the tympanium (unless it is part of the wing, then the whole wing has to go), blind them by destroying the compund eyes and ocelli, and destroy the flight capacity of many fliers by removing their antennae. But randomly hacking at them is unlikely to do such damage- maybe light fortification plus a souped up version of Diehard would be better. Let them go to -25 hp before they finally go down to represent their ability to (mentally as it were) ignore damage.

Or should they be relatively easy to hit (low AC), but hard to damage (DR)? Or easy to damage, but it just doesn't matter (tons of hp)?

Yes to all of them, but it depends of the family or even species.

Particularly cool, sense i've got a couple masters of stealth in the group [evil grin].

They should never be able to sneak up on any insect- even catterpillars and maggots have enough sensory gear to pick them up from a distance. It is speed that kills them (esp since they are very slow in most cases).

 

[woodelf]

By the way, Woodelf - Are you the same person who used to have Woodelf's RPG Index? The page is still up I see, but it has been a long time between updates. Given how long it has been running (On a college server no less!) I am surprised that it is still there.

The Auld Grump

Yep. There're a number of reasons it got abandoned--mostly, just became more than i could handle. I occasionally toy with resurrecting it, now that i have the tools to automate most of it (in particular, checking for dead links), but it's not a big priority. I gave up years ago, after years of trying, on getting them to take down the pages. Given their mostly-irrelevant status, i really wish they'd go away.

 

[Psion]

I remember an article on Monte Cook's website suggesting that in order to make giant vermin more like real insects, they should get fortification to a certain degree (say, a 75% chance to ignore crits and sneak attacks) and tremorsense.

Actually, that was a preview for a snippet that made it into Beyond Countless Doorways, suggesting that you give insects a 50% immunity to sneak attacks and crits, and also suggested that you give flying insects blindsence (because they can sense disturbances in the air around them) or tremorsense (for groud-born insects.)

 

[woodelf]

Is it a sand desert or rocky/soil desert? Both have beetles, ants and flies (some with the most interesting survival mechanisms), but the latter will have more diversity and more orders. I would not use termites unless there is some form of usable cellulose in the area and lots of it.

You give me an idea of the desert's makeup and I have several examples of each to draw from.

Well, i get to decide. [not only can i change it, of course, but the source materials don't say much.] I'm picturing mostly a sandy waste, but maybe rocky outcroppings, too. At least one area has a volcanic cone, and presumably lava fields (either flows of hard stone and/or fields of pyroclast). No macroscopic animal life to speak of, plants just little ground-hugging things. Or maybe not even those--it is fantasy after all, so i don't really have a problem with a Martian ecology [as in John Carter of Mars, where there're all these monstrous predators, but no herbivores, and essentially no plants.]: giant insects, genies, and nothing else.

I wouldn't say that at all. They do have specialized sensory organs and one can easily deafen those that can hear by breaking the tympanium (unless it is part of the wing, then the whole wing has to go), blind them by destroying the compund eyes and ocelli, and destroy the flight capacity of many fliers by removing their antennae. But randomly hacking at them is unlikely to do such damage- maybe light fortification plus a souped up version of Diehard would be better. Let them go to -25 hp before they finally go down to represent their ability to (mentally as it were) ignore damage.

I was more referring to the fact that lots of insects have their senses distributed across their bodies. They often have more than two eyes, often not all on their head. Or, rather, at least have light sensors of some sort on other part of their bodies. Similarly, a fair number of insects have their sound sensors somewhere other than their head--on their legs (sometimes all of them, IIRC), or wings, or thorax. And while some have incredibly sensitive sniffers on their antennae, others smell wit htheir feet, IIRC. And so on. Other than touch, all of a mammal's senses--and all of its ranged senses--are on its head. Put a heavy hood on a mammal, and it's pretty much incapacitated. Trying that with an insect is frequently futile (though, like you said, it depends on the species).

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Yep. There're a number of reasons it got abandoned--mostly, just became more than i could handle. I occasionally toy with resurrecting it, now that i have the tools to automate most of it (in particular, checking for dead links), but it's not a big priority. I gave up years ago, after years of trying, on getting them to take down the pages. Given their mostly-irrelevant status, i really wish they'd go away.

Heh, pretty close to what I thought. Though 'back in the day' it was one of my favorite RPG indexes. You did good work!

The Auld Grump