D&D 4E Realistic Strength and Carrying Capacity for 4E

[mmadsen]

That's essentially due to a chemical governor that keeps our muscles from operating at full capacity most all of the time.

Can you explain?

 

[Jackelope King]

The biggest problem with this suggestion is the lack of consistency. When you get a bad roll, you all of a sudden can't carry the armor you have been wearing for the last 3 months. While at the same time on a natural 20, you can all of a sudden move that 1-ton bolder that no one in the village has been able to move?

Don't roll it for your normal inventory. Admittedly, this works best when you have a relatively consistent inventory (and you're not constantly strapping a new sword to your back) and isn't so applicable to a 3e-style magic item Christmas tree. If it's a sensible load, don't worry about it. It's only when you want to do something like pick up the huge chest of gold that it matters or try to move the 1-ton boulder. So long as they get the DCs to scale correctly, then no, you're not going to see the PCs lifting up 1-ton boulders over their heads. But you know what? The heroic PC bracing and managing to move that huge boulder (maybe with the help of the rest of the PCs aiding him on the check) and then succeeding because of a high roll? That's the stuff heroic fantasy is made of. Sounds pretty win-win to me.

Why would you make something that is extremely predictable in real life extremely wild an unpredictable in the game?

Why would you make picking locks (something that is extremely predictable in real life) extremely wild and unpredictable in the game by rolling for it? Why would you make mountain climbing (something that is extremely predictable in real life) extremely wild and unpredictable in the game by rolling for it? Why would you make jumping (something that is extremely predictable in real life) extremely wild and unpredictable in the game by rolling for it? Why would you make riding a horse (something that is extremely predictable in real life) extremely wild and unpredictable in the game by rolling for it? Why would you make...

I think you see the point. It may be extremely predictable under controlled circumstances (taking 10) that you can lift something weighing X pounds successfully, but what if it's oddly shaped and the balance is strange? Or what if you can't get a good grip? Or what if you figure the leverage out easily on the first try? There's a huge difference between trying to pick up a big, heavy, awkward hundred-pound piece of hard-wood furniture and carrying a teenage girl of the same weight around on your back, even though they way the same. There's also a big difference between trying to fireman's carry a friend in training in a comfortable, safe room and then trying to fireman's carry the same guy in a burning building. The same as there's a difference between trying to pick a lock in the quiet and safety of your room for practice and trying to pick the exact same lock in the dark dungeon where one wrong move could give you a poison dart to the neck for your trouble.

You want predictability? Take 10.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Can you explain?

Bear in mind that this explanation came from a molecular biologist and I'm just a history major.

But his explanation was that our body produces a chemical(s) that keeps our muscles from working at full strength, restricting them to a reduced output most of the time. During fight or flight reactions people can at times operate much closer to full capacity as some of the components of adrenaline and others released during those times can partially counteract the effects.

 

[mmadsen]

Why would you make picking locks (something that is extremely predictable in real life) extremely wild and unpredictable in the game by rolling for it? Why would you make mountain climbing (something that is extremely predictable in real life) extremely wild and unpredictable in the game by rolling for it? Why would you make jumping (something that is extremely predictable in real life) extremely wild and unpredictable in the game by rolling for it? Why would you make riding a horse (something that is extremely predictable in real life) extremely wild and unpredictable in the game by rolling for it? Why would you make...

I think you see the point.

I don't think any of those things you named are extremely predictable in real life. How much weight I can carry in a backpack is though; it's not the least bit unpredictable or variable.

You want predictability? Take 10.

Not all acts are equally predictable or unpredictable or share the same shape of probability distribution. With no distractions, I can predictably walk with the same weight pack every time -- maybe 10 or 20 pounds more on a really good day. "Taking 10" should not mean carrying just half of my best-case weight.

 

[Jackelope King]

I don't think any of those things you named are extremely predictable in real life. How much weight I can carry in a backpack is though; it's not the least bit unpredictable or variable.
Not all acts are equally predictable or unpredictable or share the same shape of probability distribution. With no distractions, I can predictably walk with the same weight pack every time -- maybe 10 or 20 pounds more on a really good day. "Taking 10" should not mean carrying just half of my best-case weight.

And as I said in the very post you quoted:

Don't roll it for your normal inventory.

 

[JDJblatherings]

Do we really want realistic Strength? Most large predators are far stronger then humans . Hard to be a hero when lions, tigers and bears are almost as dangerous to your PC as Dragons.

 

[Victim]

And how do you determine what normal inventory is without some other form of encumberance system?

 

[Derren]

Roll a d20 + Strength. Compare the DC.

Succeed? It's a light load.
Fail? It's a medium load.
Fail by 5? It's a heavy load.
Fail by 10? It's an extreme load, and you can only take 5' steps with it.
Fail by 15? You can't budge it.

"I pick up the loot" *rolls dice* "No, I failed. I put down the loot and pick it up again" *rolls dice* [repeat till check succeeds]

 

[Klaus]

"I pick up the loot" *rolls dice* "No, I failed. I put down the loot and pick it up again" *rolls dice* [repeat till check succeeds]

I think some measure of certainty is desireable, but I'd like to see a check for those extreme effort moments, like lifting a pourtcullis, or throwing a dwarf in the middle of a bunch of orcs.

 

[Roman]

Is the average stat in D&D an average for adult, 21st-century Americans? Or is it an average for quasi-medieval men? When it comes to carrying capacity, I suspect a pre-industrial farmer can carry much more than a modern office worker -- even one with superior size from better nutrition.

I am not so sure. A much larger proportion of the pre-industrial was sickly, diseased or undernourished.

From whatever little anecdotal experience (of moving heavy object) I have from developing countries, which have poorer nutrition, I also suspect that pre-industrial farmers (with worse nutrition than that available in developing, not to mention developed, countries) were not stronger than modern office workers. They were more tenacious, yes, but I suspect not stronger.

This is an important point: realism does not mean complexity. A rule can be realistic without slowing down the game, and a rule can be unrealistic without being quick and easy.
There is a world of difference between how much one can lift in a competition deadlift -- barbell with "Olympic" plates, off the ground -- and how much one can lift from a few inches lower or a few feet higher.

Indeed! Realism and gameplay are not necessarily opposed to one another. Sometimes they are even complementary.

An athletic guy can deadlift 300 lbs and can "rack pull" -- deadlift from around knee height -- maybe 400 lbs. Similarly, an athletic guy may be able to deep-squat with 300 lbs on his back, but he can walk out of the rack with 400 or 450 lbs across his back and stagger about a bit.

Competitive strength athletes can double those numbers.

This is a very good point. The method of lifting matters greatly.

To get more anecdotal evidence, I went to a gym and tried lifting a 100kg (220lb) dumbbell off the ground. I did not succeed in doing so. I am probably about average in terms of strength. I am not an athletic guy, but I doubt I am below average either.