Recharging Player Powers

[ravenheart]

Your write up is very like what I meant for the "deep resource" driven refreshes... I was thinking to make the encounter one in place of a second wind does that seem like too high a cost?

I came up with this approach with long tedious fights in mind, where a recharged encounter/daily power really could help reduce the grind. Because of that I think the time it takes to recharge is penalty enough.

Nice, clean, and simple...I like it. You might add that each tier automatically subtracts 1 from the rounds (so paragon refresh paragon powers as fast as heroic refreshes heroic). Also the round counter might be a bit too high, a d3 might more better, but that's really flavored to taste.

Thanks! I'm really trying to embrace simpler solutions with 4E, but 3.x still haunts me from time to time. All in good time I guess, but I'm glad it works out sometime!

On to your suggestion, I'm not quite sure I understand what you meant. Did you want me to use 1d4+1/2 regardless of the tier of the power? I specifically made the recharge time of paragon and epic powers slower so that it would preserve balance by preventing spamming high level encounter and daily powers. But maybe a static recharge time would be better?

and I choose d4 since it is the smallest dice not requiring the use of a greater dice to determine a lower number. But perhaps one could change it to:
Heroic: 1(2 for daily)+1d2
Paragon: 1(2 for daily)+1d3
Epic: 1(2 for daily)+1d4

 

[Garthanos]

A delay in between use seems like a reasonable limit in any event my only issue with it ... well I don't like tracking rounds and making the number of rounds random so I might need to look that up... well.

Tying deep resource reuse... to already defined resources surges/secondwinds/action points feels interesting it shows there is something you are trading it for... just saying you reuse ... after a delay doesn't.

I agree,in general a once in a while re-use of player characters restricted use abilities Is in my opinion a more vivid method of speeding combats lasting a little long than for instance halving monster hit points or similar solutions bandied about.

Simplifying the idea of roll based refresh even just applying it to attack powers still seems interesting one could get some sim mileage out of a critical roll on the first attack roll associated with an attack power means it isnt expended.

Combine that with having feats like subtle fighter and careful focus (for mages) to make that roll requirement less stringent than a critical.

Subtle Fighter | Careful Focus
The roll associated with your attack powers are considered 2 higher for purposes of determining whether you may reuse that power.

The trickster power would be adjusted to perhaps be getting the feat free and maybe with an additional +1.

 

[Stalker0]

On to your suggestion, I'm not quite sure I understand what you meant. Did you want me to use 1d4+1/2 regardless of the tier of the power? I specifically made the recharge time of paragon and epic powers slower so that it would preserve balance by preventing spamming high level encounter and daily powers. But maybe a static recharge time would be better?

What I'm suggesting is that you keep your times, but increase the speed for paragon and epic character.

For example, Paragon characters subtract 1 round from the number of rounds they have to recharge.

Example: A heroic character wants to recharge a heroic power. That's d4+1. He rolls a 4, so 5 rounds. If a paragon character wanted to recharge the same power, he rolls d4+1 - 1 (because he's paragon). If he rolled a 4, that would be 4 rounds to recharge. With an epic characters, its d4+1-2 (because he's epic), so 3 rounds. Now its still slower for them to recharge paragon and epic powers, but they recharge everything a little quicker than your model.


Garthanos brings up a good point about round tracking, that's not really the 4e way. Might I suggest this instead? When you recharge, its a saving throw, with a bonus or penalty. So recharge a heroic power could be a saving throw with a -5 bonus or something.

Anyway this is off topic with the OP, so I would recommend putting this in another thread.

 

[Garthanos]

Might I suggest this instead? When you recharge, its a saving throw, with a bonus or penalty. So recharge a heroic power could be a saving throw with a -5 bonus or something.

I was considering difficulties of non-attack powers being based on the level of the power... but having it based on Tier could allow those non-leveled powers granted by races, classes or feats.

Hey that saving throw mechanic is growing on me...here is a way for it to feel logical to me.

For powers which have an "effect" (because an effect implies the power is not dependent on the target of the power so even if it includes an attack its not central to the power) The save coulld be modeling physical or mental resilience.... appropriate to the power. Most martial activities would be fortitude most magical domain activities is a will save.

Reflex saves could be generalized to recover most any power that doesn't have an "effect" or an attack roll.

Powers without an effect but with an attack roll we use an analog to the Tricksters Control Power, adjust the success range by is it daily, encounter and Tier.

Hmmmm not sure if it holds up under a sim light but it seems to imply some interesting relationships.

The options do not seem mutually exclusive although the resillience save does make using a static cost for those deep resources unnecessary.

1) using a derivation of the tricksters control power (attack roll powers only).
2) using a static cost (like a second wind or action pt)
3) using a saving throw appropriate to the power.

 

[CapnZapp]

Doesn't characters (at Paragon and Epic levels) already get powers that allow Encounter and Daily recharges (and swaps)?

 

[Garthanos]

Doesn't characters (at Paragon and Epic levels) already get powers that allow Encounter and Daily recharges (and swaps)?

Too little too late, and misses other benefits.

For those who don't "get" the reasoning behind the limited uses (especially for many of the martial powers...) ie why can't my character just do this most all the time? those high level hints do very little -they are way after the fact. Where as immediately being able to make an admittedly difficult fortitude check (or paying for it with a second wind/action point) to see if your Barbarian can still do his rage is rather in your face as is immediately tying the reuse to the quality of your performance of the trick (on attacks).

Another reason to free-up reuse (introduce it at low levels) is to address usage hording Or to reduce the problematic sense of wasted use especially on dailies (whiffs are UN-FUN as is using a daily and taking out a minion, but can have less bite if the powers are sometimes reusable

And it is also a more vivid grind solution than adjusting hit points or similar.

If you arent experiencing disconnect with the logic of limited uses, dissatisfaction with hoarding and or failed dailies and think the battles arent taking a bit long... or have satisfying other solutions well it isnt for you.

PS: It can also reduce the appeal of the 15 minute work day.
Note if you really dig the resource managing having it be less predictable could be a good or a bad thing, shrug.

 

[Neubert]

Or to reduce the problematic sense of wasted use especially on dailies (whiffs are UN-FUN as is using a daily and taking out a minion, but can have less bite if the powers are sometimes reusable

Hey Garthanos. Reading this thread made me think of a somewhat similar system that popped into my mind a little while back, when reading posts about this issue.
Basically, as you say, missing with those dailies are no fun - but I don't want to slow down the game by adding a lot of extra work in order to see if the power recharges.

The system is simple:
When using a encounter power, if the attack roll comes up as a natural 1-4, the power is not spent. The same counts for dailies, except on a 1 or 2. How big the range should be (20% chance to "recharge" an encounter, 10% for a daily) might be too high/low, but that is easily changeable.
(Another option is to call a 1 a miss and no recharge, but I'd rather not complicate things).

Using this, there are no extra rolls, it is simply a look at the attack roll.
It is not a system without faults though (as I said, it was just an idea).
First of all, it hinges on the fact that players miss on a natural roll of 1-4. I wanted to create the system so missed powers were not spent, rather than an actual recharge.

- What happens if there are more than one attack roll (AoE for instance)?
My suggestion is to either look at the first roll, or to see if there were no hits at all, using the power.

- Powers with the "Reliable" keyword needs to be compensated.
This I have no answer to currently.

- What about powers with miss effects?
My suggestion would probably be to let the player decide between not having used the power or get the miss effect (I suppose this would be the same for powers with just "Effect".

- What if it is a power with no attack roll?
If there are no attack roll, I would assume it always work. In the case powers exist where the power might not work, but doesn't have an attack roll, then possibly just roll a d20 to see if it is spent.

Lastly, I have no flavor reason for this system, but I see that as the smallest issue.


In my head it all seems quite elegant. I hope it is something that is useful for you, even just to give you something to think about.

 

[Garthanos]

Hey Garthanos. Reading this thread made me think of a somewhat similar system that popped into my mind a little while back, when reading posts about this issue.
Basically, as you say, missing with those dailies are no fun - but I don't want to slow down the game by adding a lot of extra work in order to see if the power recharges.

The system is simple:
When using a encounter power, if the attack roll comes up as a natural 1-4, the power is not spent. The same counts for dailies, except on a 1 or 2. How big the range should be (20% chance to "recharge" an encounter, 10% for a daily) might be too high/low, but that is easily changeable.
(Another option is to call a 1 a miss and no recharge, but I'd rather not complicate things).

Using this, there are no extra rolls, it is simply a look at the attack roll.
It is not a system without faults though (as I said, it was just an idea).
First of all, it hinges on the fact that players miss on a natural roll of 1-4. I wanted to create the system so missed powers were not spent, rather than an actual recharge.

- What happens if there are more than one attack roll (AoE for instance)?
My suggestion is to either look at the first roll, or to see if there were no hits at all, using the power.

- Powers with the "Reliable" keyword needs to be compensated.
This I have no answer to currently.

- What about powers with miss effects?
My suggestion would probably be to let the player decide between not having used the power or get the miss effect (I suppose this would be the same for powers with just "Effect".

- What if it is a power with no attack roll?
If there are no attack roll, I would assume it always work. In the case powers exist where the power might not work, but doesn't have an attack roll, then possibly just roll a d20 to see if it is spent.

Lastly, I have no flavor reason for this system, but I see that as the smallest issue.


In my head it all seems quite elegant. I hope it is something that is useful for you, even just to give you something to think about.

The flavor description I used was this.

Extravagantly Poor Performance - option
You perform so badly your opponent doesn't even notice you tried the exploit or your spell was interrupted so soon that the secondary components were left untouched.

We could combine good an bad performance as a base line rule.
Iniitally your power can be reused on a 20 and pretty much the same for a 1... then have the feat(s) extend this range of reuse, give a couple points more range on either end.

Ahhhh ... I see since the low end is tied to a failure it does seem reasonable to make it higher odds hmmm and addresses whiff rather more directly, yes it does work independently. I like it.

 

[Garthanos]

- What if it is a power with no attack roll?
If there are no attack roll, I would assume it always work. In the case powers exist where the power might not work, but doesn't have an attack roll, then possibly just roll a d20 to see if it is spent.

Basically this is pretty close to the same logistic as as having the player make a Will or Fortitude save to try and be able to retain the power.