D&D 5E Reckless Attack and Shield Master Interactions

[FrogReaver]

Reckless Attack says: "When you make your first attack on your turn, you can decide to attack recklessly."

Shield Master says: "...you can use a bonus action to try and shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield"

Does the bonus action to shove a creature count as an attack as far as "Reckless Attack" is concerned?

 

[Lucas Blackstone]

I could see varying arguments for both sides of this but the rules say that shoving is a special melee attack so I would say yes, it counts.

 

[Bardic Dave]

No, reckless attack only applies to attack rolls. Shoving is an ability check.

The rules do not say that shoving is a special melee attack. What the rules say is that you can perform a shove instead of an attack when you take the attack action on your turn.

To sum it up:
Shove is not a special melee attack.
Shove is an ability check.
When you take the attack action on your turn, you can substitute one (or more) attack(s) for a shove attempt.
Reckless attack applies to attack rolls, not ability checks.
Reckless attack does not apply to shove attempts.

 

[FrogReaver]

I could see varying arguments for both sides of this but the rules say that shoving is a special melee attack so I would say yes, it counts.

Ah contraire! The rules don't define shoving as a special melee attack. Instead they define a special melee attack you can make while using the Attack action to shove a creature. The rules actually do not define anything about a shove that is not done while using the Attack action.

That's what makes this question so interesting!

 

[Bardic Dave]

Ah contraire! The rules don't define shoving as a special melee attack. Instead they define a special melee attack you can make while using the Attack action to shove a creature. The rules actually do not define anything about a shove that is not done while using the Attack action.

That's what makes this question so interesting!

The rules do define what shoving is. It's an ability check, or more precisely, an ability check contest.

There's nothing more to it than that. I seem to recall there was a sage advice that makes this more or less a shut case. I encourage you to look for it if you're interested.

 

[FrogReaver]

What if I could show you the rules for a special melee attack that is not resolved with an attack roll, but instead with an ability check? Doesn't the existence of such a thing invalidate your reasoning about needing an attack roll to be an attack?

No, reckless attack only applies to attack rolls. Shoving is an ability check.

The rules do not say that shoving is a special melee attack. What the rules say is that you can perform a shove instead of an attack when you take the attack action on your turn.

To sum it up:
Shove is not a special melee attack.
Shove is an ability check.
When you take the attack action on your turn, you can substitute one (or more) attack(s) for a shove attempt.
Reckless attack applies to attack rolls, not ability checks.
Reckless attack does not apply to shove attempts.

 

[FrogReaver]

The rules do define what shoving is. It's an ability check, or more precisely, an ability check contest.

There's nothing more to it than that. I seem to recall there was a sage advice that makes this more or less a shut case. I encourage you to look for it if you're interested.

The rules do not define what shoving is. If they did you would cite the rule. Let me help. You are thinking of the last section on Page 195 of the PHB. It doesn't say what you seem to recall it saying...

 

[abirdcall]

Shoving a creature is a special melee attack.

So yes, it is an attack. It will even end the invisbility spell.

 

[FrogReaver]

Shoving a creature is a special melee attack.

So yes, it is an attack. It will even end the invisbility spell.

Rule please?

I bet you can't find it because PHB pg 195 last section doesn't say what you think it does...

 

[Bardic Dave]

The rules do not define what shoving is. If they did you would cite the rule. Let me help. You are thinking of the last section on Page 195 of the PHB. It doesn't say what you seem to recall it saying...

Reckless Attack: "...Doing so gives you advantage on melee weapon attack rolls using Strength..."

Jeremy Crawford on twitter in June 2015: Grapple and Shove are special attacks that use an ability check instead of an attack roll.
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/06/08/shove-grapple-attacks/

No attack roll, so no reckless attack.

Like I said, open and shut.

I will confess that I was wrong to say that shove is not a special flavour of attack though. Jeremy Crawford says that it is, so it must be so.