Recovering from a Trip Attack

[JustinA]

1. Can a character take a 5' step while prone then get up? Nope.

As a footnote to this, you can crawl 5' as a move action and then get up from prone with your standard action.

Admittedly, I was rolling poorly all night (lost initiative, 2s for opposed checks), but once it was on the ground, what else could I do except have the leucrotta try to stand up? I did a quick search at the table and found rules in the FAQ for crawling away, but I really don't think that maneuver would have changed things much in either case.

It can attack from prone. This has a hefty, but not insurmountable, penalty. One of things the leucrotta could do while prone is trip its attackers -- once they're prone as well the penalties all cancel out.

You should also make sure that you're not allowing the AoO to be used to trip the leucrotta again: The AoO is resolved before the action is completed, so even if the trip is successful you've simply made the already prone leucrotta prone again... and then it finishes its action and stands up.

The druid player suggested what he said was a fairly common house rule, that you can make a jump check to stand up from prone without taking AOPs?

I've never heard of that houserule before but, at first glance, it doesn't sound like a half bad idea. I'd probably go with a Tumble check rather than a Jump check, though, since it not only makes more sense to me but is also more consistent with what a Tumble check normally lets you accomplish.

I would NOT, as someone suggested, go back to the 3.0 version where standing up doesn't provoke an AoO. The problem is that tripping then becomes utterly useless at low levels: You use your attack to knock them down, they stand up on their turn and... you're back to square zero (but you've wasted your turn).

After playing around with Trip alot, the only thing I've done is have it resolved with an opposed grapple check (so that it scales with level).

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net

 

[hong]

We considered that, but I didn't want to nerf the druid's summoned wolves and wasn't sure if just eliminating the AOPs would do so, or make monsters with trip less powerful? Or maybe that's not factored in to the CRs?

Tripping is already plenty powerful even without the AoO for getting up. You spend a move action to get up, which means you can't make a full attack, or you make an attack but can't retreat.

 

[Vegepygmy]

4. Does Combat expertise apply even though it's technicly preformed after the Attack of Opportunity?
5. Like #4 does fighting defensively help or is it a question of timing and it just comes too late?

Both of those are a question of timing. If the character rises and then makes an attack using Combat Expertise or fighting defensively, then the bonus to AC occurs after the AoO for rising has been drawn, so they don't help. If, however, he makes an attack using Combat Expertise or fighting defensively while prone and then tries to rise, the bonus to AC will apply.

While a case can be made that the redefining of "standard action" from 3.0 to 3.5 changes the analysis, I think the 3.0 FAQ's answer should still apply.

Does the Armor Class bonus from Expertise apply to the whole round, or just from the moment when I start swinging? For example, I want to use a standard action to run past some bugbears and hit the goblin shaman behind. Can I apply the Expertise bonus to the bugbears' opportunity attacks?

The AC bonus--and the attack penalty--applies from the moment you use it (on your turn), until it's your turn again. Suppose the character in the example above chooses to allocate 3 points of attack bonus to AC; the character gets a +3 AC bonus against the bugbears' attacks of opportunity and suffers a -3 attack penalty against the bugbear shaman. If the bugbear shaman chooses to cast a spell later in the round (before it's the character's turn to act again) and provokes an attack of opportunity from the character, the character also suffers a -3 penalty to the attack of opportunity.

So I'd say yes, you can apply the dodge bonus to your AC from Combat Expertise and/or fighting defensively when standing up from prone, even though you haven't used an attack action yet, as long as you do use an attack action once you're up.

 

[MarkB]

As a footnote to this, you can crawl 5' as a move action and then get up from prone with your standard action.

However, it's worth noting that crawling provokes AoOs both from foes who threaten your starting square and from foes who threaten the square you crawl into.

 

[shilsen]

While a case can be made that the redefining of "standard action" from 3.0 to 3.5 changes the analysis, I think the 3.0 FAQ's answer should still apply.

I don't think the 3.0 FAQ's answer refers to this situation anyway. It says the bonus applies "from the moment you use it (on your turn)" unless your turn comes up again, and is essentially reiterating that it lasts an entire round. But if you're rising and haven't used the attack action yet, the moment you use it hasn't occurred yet.

So I'd say yes, you can apply the dodge bonus to your AC from Combat Expertise and/or fighting defensively when standing up from prone, even though you haven't used an attack action yet, as long as you do use an attack action once you're up.

I'd say no, for the reason mentioned above, and as I stated, I don't think the FAQ answer contradicts that at all. Note that your reading leads to strange situations like someone beginning to rise and gaining the AC bonus without having an attack bonus yet, drawing an AoO and being rendered incapable of taking the attack action (dropped to unconsciousness or death, paralyzed, etc). It would seem strange that the person benefited from a maneuver he wasn't able to carry out at all.

 

[Vegepygmy]

I don't think the 3.0 FAQ's answer refers to this situation anyway. It says the bonus applies "from the moment you use it (on your turn)" unless your turn comes up again, and is essentially reiterating that it lasts an entire round. But if you're rising and haven't used the attack action yet, the moment you use it hasn't occurred yet.

If you read the FAQ's entire answer, you'll see that it says the bonus to AC applies even against the AoOs made by the bugbears--before the character has used an attack action.

And I'm surprised to see someone with as much knowledge and expertise as yourself, Shilsen, making the "paradox" argument--that "it would seem strange" for someone to benefit from a maneuver he never got to finish performing. Does it also "seem strange" to you that someone can be killed by the AoO he provokes for casting a spell when he never actually gets to cast that spell?

 

[shilsen]

If you read the FAQ's entire answer, you'll see that it says the bonus to AC applies even against the AoOs made by the bugbears--before the character has used an attack action.

I hadn't noticed it, but the question has some weird wording. The PC wants to "use a standard action to run past some bugbears and hit the goblin shaman behind them". You can't pull off the move and attack with just a standard action, so I'm not really sure exactly what the person meant (partial charge?). Either way, assuming the FAQ does mean to rule exactly as you are, I'll disagree with it here.

And I'm surprised to see someone with as much knowledge and expertise as yourself, Shilsen, making the "paradox" argument--that "it would seem strange" for someone to benefit from a maneuver he never got to finish performing. Does it also "seem strange" to you that someone can be killed by the AoO he provokes for casting a spell when he never actually gets to cast that spell?

I'll admit that there are lots of paradoxes in the rules that I'm okay with, but for me the spellcasting one doesn't count. The AoO occurs during the spellcasting, so getting killed and being unable to complete it doesn't seem any stranger to me than someone being unable to complete a charge because he's killed by an AoO incurred during the movement.

 

[Destil]

We considered that, but I didn't want to nerf the druid's summoned wolves and wasn't sure if just eliminating the AOPs would do so, or make monsters with trip less powerful? Or maybe that's not factored in to the CRs?

It was a pretty frustrating experience, I'll admit (kind of like losing a fighting video game because the other player with the whip knocks you down and rapid-fire button-mashes to prevent you from getting back up again), but I think I'm okay with it as long as my players are okay getting smacked with it sometime too.

I did this and there hasn't been any problems, druids are already master grapplers with summoned creatures, tripping isn't a huge loss...

I did reintroduce a feat (Stay Down) to allow you make an attack of opportunity in response to standing up that requires Improved Trip (and Int 15+), and lets you keep them on the ground, but no one has shown any interest.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Mobility does apply. It doesn't say "moving out of a threaten square" it says " moving out of or within a threatened area", which you are doing when you stand up in a threatened area.

 

[Egres]

Mobility does apply. It doesn't say "moving out of a threaten square" it says " moving out of or within a threatened area", which you are doing when you stand up in a threatened area.

Mhh...no.

Even drawing a weapon makes you "move".

Do you apply Mobility when drawing a weapon?