Leif
Adventurer
Thanks! I dunno what happened, boss, I musta had a worse case of the dumass working than I thought. Thanks for not just crap-canning Banaq out-of-hand!
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Recruiting Closed: MLeibrock's and Scotley's Wrath of the Righteous mid level game.
- Thread starter Scotley
- Start date
Scotley
Hero
Interesting, traits often had specific things associated with them in original sources like the player's guides that were taken out of later supplements, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. Let me review. I had used the SRD rather than looking up the original source too when reviewing.
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Scotley
Hero
He's gone with the skirmisher archetype instead of spells:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/skirmisher
Goodness, that's irksome. So only people following Cayden get to be strong willed?
Ah well. Let me know if you want to enforce that. If so, I'll pick a different trait. There's plenty to choose from.
Now! Leif! Happy to take another look. And now that I think I grasp your concept a little better, hopefully my comments will be more useful to you.
Looking at this, you're definitely going for an 'arcane archer' of sorts, even if you don't take the PrC. Pursuant to this, I do have some suggestions:
Attributes
Consider the following array:
S12 (2pts)
D14 (5pts)+2=16
C12 (2pts)-2=10
I12 (2 pts)+2=14
W12 (2 pts)
C15 (7 pts=15) +1 L4
What I did was shift 1 point from each of your Constitution and Intelligence, and move it over to Dexterity. This gives you no immediate penalty (both Int and Con were odd numbers previously, and moving down to an even has no mechanical effect), and raises your Dex to 16, improving your AC, ranged attack stats, and initiative. A good trade! The only flaw here is that your Con and Int will be harder to raise now, but honestly...that shouldn't be an issue. Your level bonuses belong in Charisma and Dexterity, in roughly equal measures. Getting Dex to 16 is especially crucial to help make up for your inherently bad BAB. You can bump that with spells, but it's best not to HAVE to do so for relatively light encounters.
Mythic Stuff
Extra Mythic Power is fine and well, but I think you'll find that in the long run it's a bust. Having lots of mythic power but nothing cool to spend it on is like having a deck full of land in Magic the Gathering. And mythic power uses escalate very quickly as mythic tiers are advanced. It's not +1 per tier. I suspect we won't be hurting for want of a measely 3 power uses once we're tier 3 or above.
And just LOOK at what you can get instead!
[sblock=Mythic Path Fun!]Enduring Armor - This lets you skip Mage Armor for a far superior scaling version that can't ever be taken away. Saves you time buffing (which is huge) and can't be dispelled, and means you get to pick another 1st level spell.
If you like using wands and scrolls and so on, check out Enhance Magic Item. Boosts item caster level...and this is for all purposes, so that 1st level Magic Missile wand you got for 750 can...with sufficient mythic tiers...spit out up to 3 magic missiles a pop! However, this one DOES key off your tier, so it can wait for a bit...
Remixer. You have a crapton of potions, but most of them all do the same things. What if you need something else? REMIX IT. This is a handy dandy power that lets you alter the spell a potion casts on the fly. This could be a very nice way to 'cast' buffs on yourself even after your spell slots are expended. The power requires the spell you remix the potion to to be 'prepared' (ie - a spell known by you), but doesn't require you to cast the spell in question to remix the potion.
Resilient Arcana. This one can probably wait, since it keys off your tier, but it's worth mentioning. It adds to the DC to dispel your magic. Because you will (most likely) be depending a lot on buffs, this will be big for you. Huge. Demons LOVE casting Greater Dispel. Many can do it at-will.
If you want to summon things, and that Summon Monster II suggests you might, consider Speedy Summons. It's pretty easy to disrupt summon spells since it takes a full turn to do. The great thing about this is that it speeds it up for NO COST. If you pay mythic power, it makes the summon SWIFT, which means you can buff AND summon in the same turn. Tell me that doesn't sound nice.
Throw Spell. Take a melee touch spell like Shocking Grasp or Vampiric Touch, and make it a ranged touch spell that gets all the bonuses you will be giving your ranged attacks. Crappy range at first, but it'll scale with tier and get pretty decent. Who doesn't like absorbing life energy at range?
Or, ya know...you can get 3 extra uses of mythic power too. Sup to you.[/sblock]
Spell Picks
Okay! This is a big one, because as a sorceror, your spell picks are your life. They define what you do and how you do it. Lets dive in.
I want to say don't bother with Read Magic as a cantrip, get Acid Splash. It can make use of all the ranged attack buffs you'll be using, and ignores Spell Resistance. Yes, it's hardly any damage, but it's at-will, and you may find yourself reduced to it. I don't recommend any arcanist ever be without an attack cantrip, for those desperate times.
Here's a thing...you have some spells that are resisted with saving throws. I don't recommend this. Your build is just as much about ranged attacks as it is about magic, so your save DCs are behind your power level. You can have a few if you want (and in fact, it's wise to have at least 1 anti-Will and 1 anti-Fort just in case), but I don't recommend making them 'primary' spell choices.
In particular, at 1st level, don't bother with Burning Hands. DC 15, short range, easily resisted elemental type...it's a spell you will rarely want to cast, and that will rarely be useful if you do cast it. In the same vein, Lightning Bolt is probably not the best choice for you at level 3. It's not that it's a bad spell, but it's usually hard to aim past allies (cuz we'll be in there scooting around amidst the monsters) and your save DC will not be up to par.
Your second level spells are decent. Summoning is something that requires some...investment to get the most out of (augment summons and the Speedy Summons trait I would say) but it is versatile enough that I wouldn't nix it. Just don't expect the summons to be worth anything in combat other than bags of hit points to temporarily slow down enemies. Combatworthy summons should be augmented, and cast at your highest spell level.
So here are my specific recommendations:
[sblock]Drop Read Magic and get Acid Splash.
Ditch Burning Hands, and get True Strike. For when you absolutely, positively need that arrow or spell to be delivered on time. Next turn. (unless you cast True Strike mythically, in which case on the same turn) Alternatively, check out Gravity Bow. Arrows do 2d6 base damage? YES PLEASE.
Consider replacing Summon Monster II with Create Pit (good for area denial and keeping follks away from you as you plink them), Glitterdust (for the blinding/anti-invisibility), Resist Energy, or Cat's Grace.
Drop Lightning Bolt and replace with:
Heroism - Awesome buffing spell, one of the best. Stacks with other spells easily, and boosts attacks, saves and skill checks all at the same time. Decent duration too!
Haste - ALSO a great buff, partly because it affects multiple allies, and also because it gives extra attacks! Can be a big force multiplier! Haste can also benefit from the Tenacious Transmutation feat, which with the Resilient Arcana mythic power can make your spells nearly impossible to dispel.
Battering Blast - Not a buff, but a very interesting ranged touch spell. It does damage that scales with level in two ways. First, the damage done by the missile increases with level up to 5d6. Then, additional levels can also give extra missiles, similar to Scorching Ray. Even better, these missiles are Force, which has no elemental resistance, and can do Bull Rushes on targets. This is a great way to exert some battlefield control, and discourage enemies from approaching you in melee!
Displacement - One of the Queen Bees of defensive buffs, that 50% miss chance will drive enemies NUTS. Works until foes that have True Sight start popping up, but honestly even then it'll still work on MOST foes, so it never really goes out of style. You can alternately consider Blink...which works with Tenacious Transmutation...but it has a downside to it for you, so I tend to stick with Displacement.
Fly - Hard to go wrong with being a ranged attacker who can't be reached from the ground.[/sblock]
Equipment
Get some Cold Iron arrows. Stat.
I'd mention the Color Spray wand, but I believe it's already been addressed.
If you can possibly put the funds together, get a Cloak of Resistance. The best you possibly can. You have some vulnerable save bonuses.
Looking Ahead
At some point, soon hopefully, you need to decide if you want to stay a dedicated caster, or if you want to become an Arcane Archer. Either is equally viable, and both have a few things to keep in mind.
[sblock=Arcane Archer] - If you're like me, your reaction to this was to morph into Admiral Ackbar and croak "it's a trap!" In D&D 3.5, it totally was. But like many things, Pathfinder has breathed new life into a limp old PrC, and it's worthy of consideration now.
Pros - Lots of nifty abilities you can't get other ways. Your BAB progression is repaired for the duration of the PrC, and it also boosts your Fort save which is going to be a trouble spot for you. Your AA abilities will save you a TON of money on bow enchantments, which translates into more gear in other areas.
Cons - BAB requirement means you'll probably need to multiclass if you want the full 10 level progression. Sorcerors alone can't qualify until level 12. Advance as a sorcer to level 8, then take 2 fighter or ranger levels, and you're good to go. This means, along with the 3 'dead' caster levels in Arcane Archer, you'll lose 5 caster levels total, but be fairly badass in terms of your actual combat ability. If you don't mind only getting to level 8 AA, then you can go Sorc 12/AA 8 and get to CL 18. This does delay your entry into the PrC though, making it more and more likely that you'll already have invested heavily in a magic bow...which kind of defeats a major bonus of taking the class. [/sblock]
[sblock=Full Caster] - This has the virtue of being easy, and it gives you the full range of spells to cast. Or does it?
Pros - Full bloodline advancement, full access to spell levels at the normal speed of progression. This can be big, and it's the option that locks you in the least. Full caster progression means you can still do summons, polymorphs...buffs of all kinds. If you feel lucky you can even invest in some save-resisted spells in addition to touch attacks. Sky's the limit.
Cons - The versatility comes at a cost. Your BAB and Fort saves will suffer. If you want to overcome this, it will require investments in terms of spell picks and feat choices. This means that the full caster progression doesn't necessarily open things up as much as it seems to, as certain choices each level will be all but mandatory in order to keep up with the difficulty curve. And you can expect to be spending a GREAT DEAL of money on a powerful bow, as several abilities can't be simulated with arcane buff spells (Holy, I'm looking at you).
It's a tricky choice. Arcane Archer's good if you really want to knuckle down and focus on that magic-enhanced arrow schtick. You won't miss 9th level spells much with that build, I assure you. Full caster is potentially safer though, since it doesn't lock you down nearly as much to a single tactic. I'd recommend take a look at the sorceror/wizard spell list twice over. Check out levels 1 though 7 with an eye for buffs that would help an archer out...then look at levels 1 through 9 thinking about where you might want to go at higher levels and seeing what's more exciting to you.[/sblock]
Ah well. Let me know if you want to enforce that. If so, I'll pick a different trait. There's plenty to choose from.
Now! Leif! Happy to take another look. And now that I think I grasp your concept a little better, hopefully my comments will be more useful to you.
Looking at this, you're definitely going for an 'arcane archer' of sorts, even if you don't take the PrC. Pursuant to this, I do have some suggestions:
Attributes
Consider the following array:
S12 (2pts)
D14 (5pts)+2=16
C12 (2pts)-2=10
I12 (2 pts)+2=14
W12 (2 pts)
C15 (7 pts=15) +1 L4
What I did was shift 1 point from each of your Constitution and Intelligence, and move it over to Dexterity. This gives you no immediate penalty (both Int and Con were odd numbers previously, and moving down to an even has no mechanical effect), and raises your Dex to 16, improving your AC, ranged attack stats, and initiative. A good trade! The only flaw here is that your Con and Int will be harder to raise now, but honestly...that shouldn't be an issue. Your level bonuses belong in Charisma and Dexterity, in roughly equal measures. Getting Dex to 16 is especially crucial to help make up for your inherently bad BAB. You can bump that with spells, but it's best not to HAVE to do so for relatively light encounters.
Mythic Stuff
Extra Mythic Power is fine and well, but I think you'll find that in the long run it's a bust. Having lots of mythic power but nothing cool to spend it on is like having a deck full of land in Magic the Gathering. And mythic power uses escalate very quickly as mythic tiers are advanced. It's not +1 per tier. I suspect we won't be hurting for want of a measely 3 power uses once we're tier 3 or above.
And just LOOK at what you can get instead!
[sblock=Mythic Path Fun!]Enduring Armor - This lets you skip Mage Armor for a far superior scaling version that can't ever be taken away. Saves you time buffing (which is huge) and can't be dispelled, and means you get to pick another 1st level spell.
If you like using wands and scrolls and so on, check out Enhance Magic Item. Boosts item caster level...and this is for all purposes, so that 1st level Magic Missile wand you got for 750 can...with sufficient mythic tiers...spit out up to 3 magic missiles a pop! However, this one DOES key off your tier, so it can wait for a bit...
Remixer. You have a crapton of potions, but most of them all do the same things. What if you need something else? REMIX IT. This is a handy dandy power that lets you alter the spell a potion casts on the fly. This could be a very nice way to 'cast' buffs on yourself even after your spell slots are expended. The power requires the spell you remix the potion to to be 'prepared' (ie - a spell known by you), but doesn't require you to cast the spell in question to remix the potion.
Resilient Arcana. This one can probably wait, since it keys off your tier, but it's worth mentioning. It adds to the DC to dispel your magic. Because you will (most likely) be depending a lot on buffs, this will be big for you. Huge. Demons LOVE casting Greater Dispel. Many can do it at-will.
If you want to summon things, and that Summon Monster II suggests you might, consider Speedy Summons. It's pretty easy to disrupt summon spells since it takes a full turn to do. The great thing about this is that it speeds it up for NO COST. If you pay mythic power, it makes the summon SWIFT, which means you can buff AND summon in the same turn. Tell me that doesn't sound nice.
Throw Spell. Take a melee touch spell like Shocking Grasp or Vampiric Touch, and make it a ranged touch spell that gets all the bonuses you will be giving your ranged attacks. Crappy range at first, but it'll scale with tier and get pretty decent. Who doesn't like absorbing life energy at range?
Or, ya know...you can get 3 extra uses of mythic power too. Sup to you.
[/sblock]Spell Picks
Okay! This is a big one, because as a sorceror, your spell picks are your life. They define what you do and how you do it. Lets dive in.
I want to say don't bother with Read Magic as a cantrip, get Acid Splash. It can make use of all the ranged attack buffs you'll be using, and ignores Spell Resistance. Yes, it's hardly any damage, but it's at-will, and you may find yourself reduced to it. I don't recommend any arcanist ever be without an attack cantrip, for those desperate times.
Here's a thing...you have some spells that are resisted with saving throws. I don't recommend this. Your build is just as much about ranged attacks as it is about magic, so your save DCs are behind your power level. You can have a few if you want (and in fact, it's wise to have at least 1 anti-Will and 1 anti-Fort just in case), but I don't recommend making them 'primary' spell choices.
In particular, at 1st level, don't bother with Burning Hands. DC 15, short range, easily resisted elemental type...it's a spell you will rarely want to cast, and that will rarely be useful if you do cast it. In the same vein, Lightning Bolt is probably not the best choice for you at level 3. It's not that it's a bad spell, but it's usually hard to aim past allies (cuz we'll be in there scooting around amidst the monsters) and your save DC will not be up to par.
Your second level spells are decent. Summoning is something that requires some...investment to get the most out of (augment summons and the Speedy Summons trait I would say) but it is versatile enough that I wouldn't nix it. Just don't expect the summons to be worth anything in combat other than bags of hit points to temporarily slow down enemies. Combatworthy summons should be augmented, and cast at your highest spell level.
So here are my specific recommendations:
[sblock]Drop Read Magic and get Acid Splash.
Ditch Burning Hands, and get True Strike. For when you absolutely, positively need that arrow or spell to be delivered on time. Next turn. (unless you cast True Strike mythically, in which case on the same turn) Alternatively, check out Gravity Bow. Arrows do 2d6 base damage? YES PLEASE.
Consider replacing Summon Monster II with Create Pit (good for area denial and keeping follks away from you as you plink them), Glitterdust (for the blinding/anti-invisibility), Resist Energy, or Cat's Grace.
Drop Lightning Bolt and replace with:
Heroism - Awesome buffing spell, one of the best. Stacks with other spells easily, and boosts attacks, saves and skill checks all at the same time. Decent duration too!
Haste - ALSO a great buff, partly because it affects multiple allies, and also because it gives extra attacks! Can be a big force multiplier! Haste can also benefit from the Tenacious Transmutation feat, which with the Resilient Arcana mythic power can make your spells nearly impossible to dispel.
Battering Blast - Not a buff, but a very interesting ranged touch spell. It does damage that scales with level in two ways. First, the damage done by the missile increases with level up to 5d6. Then, additional levels can also give extra missiles, similar to Scorching Ray. Even better, these missiles are Force, which has no elemental resistance, and can do Bull Rushes on targets. This is a great way to exert some battlefield control, and discourage enemies from approaching you in melee!
Displacement - One of the Queen Bees of defensive buffs, that 50% miss chance will drive enemies NUTS. Works until foes that have True Sight start popping up, but honestly even then it'll still work on MOST foes, so it never really goes out of style. You can alternately consider Blink...which works with Tenacious Transmutation...but it has a downside to it for you, so I tend to stick with Displacement.
Fly - Hard to go wrong with being a ranged attacker who can't be reached from the ground.[/sblock]
Equipment
Get some Cold Iron arrows. Stat.
I'd mention the Color Spray wand, but I believe it's already been addressed.
If you can possibly put the funds together, get a Cloak of Resistance. The best you possibly can. You have some vulnerable save bonuses.
Looking Ahead
At some point, soon hopefully, you need to decide if you want to stay a dedicated caster, or if you want to become an Arcane Archer. Either is equally viable, and both have a few things to keep in mind.
[sblock=Arcane Archer] - If you're like me, your reaction to this was to morph into Admiral Ackbar and croak "it's a trap!" In D&D 3.5, it totally was. But like many things, Pathfinder has breathed new life into a limp old PrC, and it's worthy of consideration now.
Pros - Lots of nifty abilities you can't get other ways. Your BAB progression is repaired for the duration of the PrC, and it also boosts your Fort save which is going to be a trouble spot for you. Your AA abilities will save you a TON of money on bow enchantments, which translates into more gear in other areas.
Cons - BAB requirement means you'll probably need to multiclass if you want the full 10 level progression. Sorcerors alone can't qualify until level 12. Advance as a sorcer to level 8, then take 2 fighter or ranger levels, and you're good to go. This means, along with the 3 'dead' caster levels in Arcane Archer, you'll lose 5 caster levels total, but be fairly badass in terms of your actual combat ability. If you don't mind only getting to level 8 AA, then you can go Sorc 12/AA 8 and get to CL 18. This does delay your entry into the PrC though, making it more and more likely that you'll already have invested heavily in a magic bow...which kind of defeats a major bonus of taking the class.
[/sblock][sblock=Full Caster] - This has the virtue of being easy, and it gives you the full range of spells to cast. Or does it?
Pros - Full bloodline advancement, full access to spell levels at the normal speed of progression. This can be big, and it's the option that locks you in the least. Full caster progression means you can still do summons, polymorphs...buffs of all kinds. If you feel lucky you can even invest in some save-resisted spells in addition to touch attacks. Sky's the limit.
Cons - The versatility comes at a cost. Your BAB and Fort saves will suffer. If you want to overcome this, it will require investments in terms of spell picks and feat choices. This means that the full caster progression doesn't necessarily open things up as much as it seems to, as certain choices each level will be all but mandatory in order to keep up with the difficulty curve. And you can expect to be spending a GREAT DEAL of money on a powerful bow, as several abilities can't be simulated with arcane buff spells (Holy, I'm looking at you).
It's a tricky choice. Arcane Archer's good if you really want to knuckle down and focus on that magic-enhanced arrow schtick. You won't miss 9th level spells much with that build, I assure you. Full caster is potentially safer though, since it doesn't lock you down nearly as much to a single tactic. I'd recommend take a look at the sorceror/wizard spell list twice over. Check out levels 1 though 7 with an eye for buffs that would help an archer out...then look at levels 1 through 9 thinking about where you might want to go at higher levels and seeing what's more exciting to you.[/sblock]
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Scotley
Hero
I've been looking over Denir and noticed a couple things. You appear to have only spent 19 of the 20 points you have to use for ability scores. It's late, so maybe I just can't add. You can't take Power Attack at first level as it requires a BAB of +1. I guess maybe you can actually since you have sacred weapon. Still trying to wrap my head around Warpriests I guess. However, it does appear you've taken toughness twice. Was that your intention? You only added hit points once near as I can tell. You still have some feats and spells to pick. There are some issues with the campaign trait we are trying to resolve as well. More on that later. I love the background and description. That Tribal Scars (Bear Belt) feat is impressive too. For some reason I've never noticed that one before.
That just leaves Queenie's character to be reviewed right? Did I leave anyone out?
I haven't forgotten that we need a synopsis of what has happened to the group before play starts.
That just leaves Queenie's character to be reviewed right? Did I leave anyone out?
I haven't forgotten that we need a synopsis of what has happened to the group before play starts.
Maidhc O Casain
Na Bith Mo Riocht Tá!
Ooh - Wand of Gravity Bow! Might have to further reduce my Wand of CLW and pick up one of those for the really tough fights . . .
mleibrock
First Post
Ahh. Makes more sense now. I saw the Urban skirmish and assumed he was going with an urban ranger archetype.
mleibrock
First Post
Shayuri,
Scotley and I discussed and we are going to allow you to have the strong willed trait (I might kick myself later when I'm trying to charm you ) It does seem that you need to be a follower of Cayden however this trait does not seem to add to your power in a significant way so if you feel that is what Thor would be good at, we are all for it.
I'm almost done going over Thorn in detail and I don't see you have picked a favored terrain. Am I missing it? If not, do you have a preference?
I think you also still need to add the "extras" scotley gave you.
Scotley and I discussed and we are going to allow you to have the strong willed trait (I might kick myself later when I'm trying to charm you
) It does seem that you need to be a follower of Cayden however this trait does not seem to add to your power in a significant way so if you feel that is what Thor would be good at, we are all for it.I'm almost done going over Thorn in detail and I don't see you have picked a favored terrain. Am I missing it? If not, do you have a preference?
I think you also still need to add the "extras" scotley gave you.
Goodness, that's irksome. So only people following Cayden get to be strong willed?
Ah well. Let me know if you want to enforce that. If so, I'll pick a different trait. There's plenty to choose from.
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Nope, the extras from the boosted campaign trait have been added.
I appreciate the leniency on Strong Willed as well.
Thorn is an Urban Ranger, who is also a Skirmisher. Archetypes can be mixed as long as they don't modify the same class traits, and those two do not. So Thorn has Favored Communities instead of Favored Terrain.
I'd actually rather have Favored Terrain, but I also want Trapfinding, so...there we are. I decided it was more important to be able to get traps than to have the terrain.
I appreciate the leniency on Strong Willed as well.
Thorn is an Urban Ranger, who is also a Skirmisher. Archetypes can be mixed as long as they don't modify the same class traits, and those two do not. So Thorn has Favored Communities instead of Favored Terrain.
I'd actually rather have Favored Terrain, but I also want Trapfinding, so...there we are.
I decided it was more important to be able to get traps than to have the terrain.Similar Threads
