Recruiting: Rowaini Musketeers--One for All and All for One!
- Thread starter Rystil Arden
- Start date
Mista Collins
First Post
This looks like a great group of people to choose from. I'll have the stats up for my tomorrow or Tuesday. I'll post him as a Swashbuckler with intentions of more than likely changing things once Jester is posted.
Rystil Arden
First Post
Okay, you want comments on flavour, right? I have a few mechanical notes as well:
[SBLOCK=Tristan notes]First, this isn't a problem really, but I'll note that EWP in the Dueling Sabre is inefficient. Since you have proficiency in all martial weapons, the Weapon Familiarity feat from CW (makes all your racial exotic weapons martial for you) will give you EWP in Sabre and Cutlass for the price of one.
Second, are you planning on ignoring any of the seven aspects of honour and having a Heroic flaw, or will Tristan be following them all? (technically you could also have a Notorious flaw and ignore two aspects of honour).
Third, and this is a comment more than anything, the Rowaini worship Angels and Saints. Some worship both. Some worship one or the other and think that the people who worship the other kind are a bit heretical. By virtue of that last name there, which means "All Saints" in French, I'll assume your character's family mainly worships the saints.
Finally, and just a minor note on a sidenote in the backstory--you have to be pretty gorgeous for higher lords from the most powerful families to be willing to marry down; 16 Cha doesn't cut it
(usually Cha needs to be 20+--14 is considered to be barely acceptable for lower nobility and anything below that will have trouble getting married amongst the nobility at all and may be left to die as a baby to avoid living a depressing life. This is because using the nonelite array of 13 12 11 10 9 8, the average noblewoman, the noblewoman will usually have Cha as the highest or second-highest stat as Cha, hence 17 or 16 is standard fare. It's interesting, really--Rowaini females have less of an Int penalty than the males, but the cultural and social tendencies of Rowaini sexist culture lead them to be likely to have their 8 or 9 in Int, while the noblemen tend to have 12 or 11, sometimes even 13, in Int, leading to a balance and even a slight advantage for the males)
Anyways, other than that, looks good.[/SBLOCK]
[SBLOCK=Tristan notes]First, this isn't a problem really, but I'll note that EWP in the Dueling Sabre is inefficient. Since you have proficiency in all martial weapons, the Weapon Familiarity feat from CW (makes all your racial exotic weapons martial for you) will give you EWP in Sabre and Cutlass for the price of one.
Second, are you planning on ignoring any of the seven aspects of honour and having a Heroic flaw, or will Tristan be following them all? (technically you could also have a Notorious flaw and ignore two aspects of honour).
Third, and this is a comment more than anything, the Rowaini worship Angels and Saints. Some worship both. Some worship one or the other and think that the people who worship the other kind are a bit heretical. By virtue of that last name there, which means "All Saints" in French, I'll assume your character's family mainly worships the saints.
Finally, and just a minor note on a sidenote in the backstory--you have to be pretty gorgeous for higher lords from the most powerful families to be willing to marry down; 16 Cha doesn't cut it
(usually Cha needs to be 20+--14 is considered to be barely acceptable for lower nobility and anything below that will have trouble getting married amongst the nobility at all and may be left to die as a baby to avoid living a depressing life. This is because using the nonelite array of 13 12 11 10 9 8, the average noblewoman, the noblewoman will usually have Cha as the highest or second-highest stat as Cha, hence 17 or 16 is standard fare. It's interesting, really--Rowaini females have less of an Int penalty than the males, but the cultural and social tendencies of Rowaini sexist culture lead them to be likely to have their 8 or 9 in Int, while the noblemen tend to have 12 or 11, sometimes even 13, in Int, leading to a balance and even a slight advantage for the males)Anyways, other than that, looks good.[/SBLOCK]
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Fenris
Adventurer
[sblock=Rystil]
Thanks for the feedback.
-EWP, don't have CW so I was unfamiliar with Weapon Familarity. Makes more sense certainly. That was why I had asked you before if you allowed non-Core sources, not to ask about a specific feat, but for suggestions I knew nothing of. Still open for that.
-The Heroic flaw. I had forgotten about that since it wasn't in the above write up. I hadn't noticed that you get 5 either. I have no idea about the honor system or honor score, so that may color that decision. Now is Virtue's Shield the acquisition of the Shield aspect of the primary Virtue? And if so when do you get it for the secondary? And is this correct:
Primary virtue: up to supreme
Secondary virtue: up to enhanced
3rd, 4th & 5th virtues: 1st only?
On that topic what is Hero's challenge? I realize the knight is not done, so I can wait for some of these answers.
-For his last name, I knew what the name meant in French ( I tried very hard with the names, especially the valley), but had no idea of Rowaini religion, so looks like I got lucky. I just thought it went well with Tristan But that concept works well enough for me.
-I went the lowest nobility he could, with a recently acquired title via military. Now he has a 16 so what you're saying is that he could really only marry within his social class, and not have much chance to marry upwards. But he could find an "average" noble woman. Correct? I could drop that 16 Int to Cha to give him a 20 Cha. That would allow him to marry higher, be more "noble" and it would be handy with Piety and Charity Virtues. But that would leave him with a 10 Int. Now I could eaily switch his feats to Power attack and Improved Sunder. That would still fit the bill as swashbucklery, and be more knightly, definitely more like Porthos
But I am open to suggestions for feats and virtues. Looking at the virtues I think Justice may be my flaw, but what does that say about him? A Knight that leaves justice to the King/Courts/Heavenly Justice? Certainly the Musketeers of Dumas didn't care about laws or justice much (until they executed de Winter).
I had been thinking about Courage, Charity, and Loyalty for Virtues. I'll wait for final word on them for a final decision. Charity would be really nice as we seem to be very short on healers!
[/sblock]
Thanks for the feedback.
-EWP, don't have CW so I was unfamiliar with Weapon Familarity. Makes more sense certainly. That was why I had asked you before if you allowed non-Core sources, not to ask about a specific feat, but for suggestions I knew nothing of. Still open for that.
-The Heroic flaw. I had forgotten about that since it wasn't in the above write up. I hadn't noticed that you get 5 either. I have no idea about the honor system or honor score, so that may color that decision. Now is Virtue's Shield the acquisition of the Shield aspect of the primary Virtue? And if so when do you get it for the secondary? And is this correct:
Primary virtue: up to supreme
Secondary virtue: up to enhanced
3rd, 4th & 5th virtues: 1st only?
On that topic what is Hero's challenge? I realize the knight is not done, so I can wait for some of these answers.
-For his last name, I knew what the name meant in French ( I tried very hard with the names, especially the valley), but had no idea of Rowaini religion, so looks like I got lucky. I just thought it went well with Tristan
But that concept works well enough for me.-I went the lowest nobility he could, with a recently acquired title via military. Now he has a 16 so what you're saying is that he could really only marry within his social class, and not have much chance to marry upwards. But he could find an "average" noble woman. Correct? I could drop that 16 Int to Cha to give him a 20 Cha. That would allow him to marry higher, be more "noble" and it would be handy with Piety and Charity Virtues. But that would leave him with a 10 Int. Now I could eaily switch his feats to Power attack and Improved Sunder. That would still fit the bill as swashbucklery, and be more knightly, definitely more like Porthos
But I am open to suggestions for feats and virtues. Looking at the virtues I think Justice may be my flaw, but what does that say about him? A Knight that leaves justice to the King/Courts/Heavenly Justice? Certainly the Musketeers of Dumas didn't care about laws or justice much (until they executed de Winter).I had been thinking about Courage, Charity, and Loyalty for Virtues. I'll wait for final word on them for a final decision. Charity would be really nice as we seem to be very short on healers!
[/sblock]
Rystil Arden
First Post
[SBLOCK=Fenris]-Ah, I can't be of overly much help there, but I can definitely suggest Familiarity over EWP
-You only ever get the Shield of your primary aspect. The rest is correct. Note that there is a special feat that requires you to have a secondary aspect and no notorious flaw (since having a notorious flaw means you only deal with five aspects anyway) that gives you an extra aspect and its powers. It can only be taken once. Hero's Challenge short version: It is a call-out to a worthy enemy for a duel. As long as your own allies don't mess with that by butting in, you get a bonus, and if the enemy breaks it by fighting with allies, she gets a penalty unless she makes a save. Works well for a Musketeer--they often like to challenge people to duels
-Okay cool
-The Charisma for your character is fine and makes sense--don't think you have to change it at all. I was just commenting on the flavour bit about the daughters mentioned in the family background (though males do not follow the interesting genetic tendencies of shared traits with charisma like the females, so really it doesn't matter). As for the male chance to marry upwards, that isn't really a function of the male's Charisma, actually--a male marries upwards by finding a slightly higher noble house with a relatively-unattractive daughter that they can't pawn upwards to gain a more prestigious ally, so they marry her downward to one of the more powerful/useful lower families. So really, marriage is a convoluted function of the guy's family power, the girl's looks, the girl's family's prestige, and possibly other sorts of intrigue in a big tangled web (just like marriage in real life!...if you're a noble, I guess)
You don't have to take a flaw--it just makes it easier for you because your code is less strict. A lack of Justice basically means that everything else on that list trumps Justice for you. Knights are not always Good-aligned, but a Lawful Good Knight who lacks Justice does so because, while still Lawful because of the strict honour code he follows, he has some tendencies towards Neutral Good type acts--he places loyalty to friends, acts of charity/kindness/mercy, the will of the church, etc above Justice. Examples: Lawful Good Knight Paladin with Justice as a Heroic Flaw finds out that a priest who is also the greedy baron's Master of the Treasury has been embezzling money for church funds, including acts of charity and repairs/expansions for the church. The knight doesn't turn the priest in--her first duty is to the church, even if she must ignore Justice. Lawful Good Royal Knight in service of the Queen discovers that she has been illicitly sleeping with the Duke of Buckingham. Rather than expose her unlawful actions, he acts to preserve her honour at all costs, as loyalty to his liege is his first duty. Lawful Good Knight Hospitaler convinces his companions not to cut down the murderous orphaned street urchin-turned-witch, despite the fact that Justice and the law call for the little girl's head. In fact, he doesn't even send the girl to prison--the girl seemed desperate and in need of love, and perhaps redeemable if given a home, love and attention, and a good example of how to live an honourable life, so he adopts her instead but keeps her under his eye.
All of these situations can occur without the Heroic Flaw for Justice, but they would be moral dilemmas that cause a decrease in one category of honour and increase in another if this was the case. With Heroic Flaw, this can be something your character is known for, and an easier choice both in and out of character (since you don't lose any honour at all for it).
[/SBLOCK]
-You only ever get the Shield of your primary aspect. The rest is correct. Note that there is a special feat that requires you to have a secondary aspect and no notorious flaw (since having a notorious flaw means you only deal with five aspects anyway) that gives you an extra aspect and its powers. It can only be taken once. Hero's Challenge short version: It is a call-out to a worthy enemy for a duel. As long as your own allies don't mess with that by butting in, you get a bonus, and if the enemy breaks it by fighting with allies, she gets a penalty unless she makes a save. Works well for a Musketeer--they often like to challenge people to duels
-Okay cool
-The Charisma for your character is fine and makes sense--don't think you have to change it at all. I was just commenting on the flavour bit about the daughters mentioned in the family background
(though males do not follow the interesting genetic tendencies of shared traits with charisma like the females, so really it doesn't matter). As for the male chance to marry upwards, that isn't really a function of the male's Charisma, actually--a male marries upwards by finding a slightly higher noble house with a relatively-unattractive daughter that they can't pawn upwards to gain a more prestigious ally, so they marry her downward to one of the more powerful/useful lower families. So really, marriage is a convoluted function of the guy's family power, the girl's looks, the girl's family's prestige, and possibly other sorts of intrigue in a big tangled web (just like marriage in real life!...if you're a noble, I guess)You don't have to take a flaw--it just makes it easier for you because your code is less strict. A lack of Justice basically means that everything else on that list trumps Justice for you. Knights are not always Good-aligned, but a Lawful Good Knight who lacks Justice does so because, while still Lawful because of the strict honour code he follows, he has some tendencies towards Neutral Good type acts--he places loyalty to friends, acts of charity/kindness/mercy, the will of the church, etc above Justice. Examples: Lawful Good Knight Paladin with Justice as a Heroic Flaw finds out that a priest who is also the greedy baron's Master of the Treasury has been embezzling money for church funds, including acts of charity and repairs/expansions for the church. The knight doesn't turn the priest in--her first duty is to the church, even if she must ignore Justice. Lawful Good Royal Knight in service of the Queen discovers that she has been illicitly sleeping with the Duke of Buckingham. Rather than expose her unlawful actions, he acts to preserve her honour at all costs, as loyalty to his liege is his first duty. Lawful Good Knight Hospitaler convinces his companions not to cut down the murderous orphaned street urchin-turned-witch, despite the fact that Justice and the law call for the little girl's head. In fact, he doesn't even send the girl to prison--the girl seemed desperate and in need of love, and perhaps redeemable if given a home, love and attention, and a good example of how to live an honourable life, so he adopts her instead but keeps her under his eye.
All of these situations can occur without the Heroic Flaw for Justice, but they would be moral dilemmas that cause a decrease in one category of honour and increase in another if this was the case. With Heroic Flaw, this can be something your character is known for, and an easier choice both in and out of character (since you don't lose any honour at all for it).
[/SBLOCK]
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Fenris
Adventurer
[sblock=Rystil]
Cool.
So for the virtues, you can get the Enhanced but not the Shield for your Secondary Virtue?
From the sound of it Heroic flaw of Justice sounds like a good bet. It provides that moral flexibility to cooperate with the party, and was so rampant in the books. I'll stick with Courage as the primary, and if and when we get to 7th level, I'll consider my second, Loyalty and Charity are the most likely 2nd and 3rd though.
As for the story issues. Sounds good. I like to immerse myself, so thanks for indulging me. As for the genetics, the beauty could certainy be a sex-influenced trait, a rather homely man many have stunning daughters. The genes for such physical beauty may be expressed only in or most strongly in females ( or other persons with high estrogen:testosterone ratios). That would certainly be consistant with the genetics you have established so far for Rowaini women, yet allow more freedom for genetic diversity of males since the traits could be transmitted on autosomes and not just sex-linked
As for the d'Toussaints, I figured, very strong men, very beautiful daughters, the classic Rowaini dichotomy.
[/sblock]
Cool.
So for the virtues, you can get the Enhanced but not the Shield for your Secondary Virtue?
From the sound of it Heroic flaw of Justice sounds like a good bet. It provides that moral flexibility to cooperate with the party, and was so rampant in the books. I'll stick with Courage as the primary, and if and when we get to 7th level, I'll consider my second, Loyalty and Charity are the most likely 2nd and 3rd though.
As for the story issues. Sounds good. I like to immerse myself, so thanks for indulging me. As for the genetics, the beauty could certainy be a sex-influenced trait, a rather homely man many have stunning daughters. The genes for such physical beauty may be expressed only in or most strongly in females ( or other persons with high estrogen:testosterone ratios). That would certainly be consistant with the genetics you have established so far for Rowaini women, yet allow more freedom for genetic diversity of males since the traits could be transmitted on autosomes and not just sex-linked
As for the d'Toussaints, I figured, very strong men, very beautiful daughters, the classic Rowaini dichotomy.
[/sblock]
Rystil Arden
First Post
[SBLOCK=Fenris]Yep, you never get more than one Shield ability.
As to Justice, having it as a Heroic flaw doesn't necessarily make the knight "morally loose"--she just expresses her lawful and good tendencies in different ways.
Alright, well, I figured it was overly complicated, but since you did say you like higher immersion: Actually, the real reason that it can be okay to have differing ranges amongst the males is that Charisma is not directly related to appearance like it is for Rowaini females--through a combination of genetic tendencies and strong societal pressures, Rowaini females (at least the ones with the +4 Charisma bonus that means they have the enhanced genetic tendencies) have a direct one-to-one mapping between appearance and Charisma, so in other words, higher-Charisma Rowaini females are always also more beautiful and closer to the Rowaini ideal, and lower-Charisma Rowaini females are always more plain and more waifish. The good genetics leads to increased Charisma/beauty for the daughters as well, as well as healthy sons, but some of that for the sons leads into Strength and Con as well, plus the males aren't forced to be tied between their appearances and Charisma, so it all works out. Most of both of these come from the mothers (moreso than in humans, whose only direct carryover from the mother is the mitochondrial DNA).
Thus, it is actually highly unlikely that a low-ranking noble family can actually keep the reputation of continually having astoundingly beautiful daughters--let's say there's a fluke daughter of incredible beauty (or even one mother whose daughters are consistently like this). They'll marry upwards and start producing beautiful daughters for the higher-ranking family, and the males of the lower-ranking family will probably get a plainer higher-ranking wife (perhaps from one of the allies made by marrying beautiful daughters up) or a moderate wife from the same stratum. Since the mothers are the main influence on the daughters' beauty, that means that the family is now unlikely to produce the same crop of beautiful daughters again. It's the way the strange almost-economic flow of beautiful Rowaini women works and makes the lower-class beautiful wife a good future investment, and this is how it works to keep everything fairly stable as far as the most beautiful women being the highest rank
(For instance, let's say a non-peerage noble like a baronet marries an astoundingly attractive incredible fluke peasant woman who somehow has 21 Cha (this is astonishingly unlikely and an extreme example). They have 5 daughters and 4 sons, and the daughters range from 18 to 22 Cha (1 of each). All 5 of them marry upwards, and the 22 Cha daughter even marries a Viscount! The sons just marry normal baronet daughters, except the firstborn, who snags the daughter of the baron whose son married the 21 Cha daughter, a girl who is below-average attractiveness for a baron's daughter but about as attractive as his brother's wives. Within one generation, the baronet's family is nearly back-to-normal, though there will be minor stray edge effects from the mother's good genes in the sons. Meanwhile, the 22 Cha daughter who became the viscount's wife is still a fluke for her status, so when her three daughters vary from 20-22 Cha, her viscount father is in luck--he marries off his most beautiful daughter to a Marquis! Even the 20 Cha daughter winds up with the local count/earl. As you can see, the families quickly normalise back to a usualish distribution amongst daughters. If we followed the Marquis's family, the daughters might even wind up married to dukes (where that perfect 22 Cha, while still not exactly common, is more likely), and the Duke's 22 Cha daughter could easily be in the running for Queen)
While it is certainly aristocratic and oppressive in many ways, in one way, it is quite interesting that in this way, a peasant girl can have a great-great-granddaughter who becomes queen, all through legitimate marriages rather than involving bastards.[/SBLOCK]
As to Justice, having it as a Heroic flaw doesn't necessarily make the knight "morally loose"--she just expresses her lawful and good tendencies in different ways.
Alright, well, I figured it was overly complicated, but since you did say you like higher immersion: Actually, the real reason that it can be okay to have differing ranges amongst the males is that Charisma is not directly related to appearance like it is for Rowaini females--through a combination of genetic tendencies and strong societal pressures, Rowaini females (at least the ones with the +4 Charisma bonus that means they have the enhanced genetic tendencies) have a direct one-to-one mapping between appearance and Charisma, so in other words, higher-Charisma Rowaini females are always also more beautiful and closer to the Rowaini ideal, and lower-Charisma Rowaini females are always more plain and more waifish. The good genetics leads to increased Charisma/beauty for the daughters as well, as well as healthy sons, but some of that for the sons leads into Strength and Con as well, plus the males aren't forced to be tied between their appearances and Charisma, so it all works out. Most of both of these come from the mothers (moreso than in humans, whose only direct carryover from the mother is the mitochondrial DNA).
Thus, it is actually highly unlikely that a low-ranking noble family can actually keep the reputation of continually having astoundingly beautiful daughters--let's say there's a fluke daughter of incredible beauty (or even one mother whose daughters are consistently like this). They'll marry upwards and start producing beautiful daughters for the higher-ranking family, and the males of the lower-ranking family will probably get a plainer higher-ranking wife (perhaps from one of the allies made by marrying beautiful daughters up) or a moderate wife from the same stratum. Since the mothers are the main influence on the daughters' beauty, that means that the family is now unlikely to produce the same crop of beautiful daughters again. It's the way the strange almost-economic flow of beautiful Rowaini women works and makes the lower-class beautiful wife a good future investment, and this is how it works to keep everything fairly stable as far as the most beautiful women being the highest rank
(For instance, let's say a non-peerage noble like a baronet marries an astoundingly attractive incredible fluke peasant woman who somehow has 21 Cha (this is astonishingly unlikely and an extreme example). They have 5 daughters and 4 sons, and the daughters range from 18 to 22 Cha (1 of each). All 5 of them marry upwards, and the 22 Cha daughter even marries a Viscount! The sons just marry normal baronet daughters, except the firstborn, who snags the daughter of the baron whose son married the 21 Cha daughter, a girl who is below-average attractiveness for a baron's daughter but about as attractive as his brother's wives. Within one generation, the baronet's family is nearly back-to-normal, though there will be minor stray edge effects from the mother's good genes in the sons. Meanwhile, the 22 Cha daughter who became the viscount's wife is still a fluke for her status, so when her three daughters vary from 20-22 Cha, her viscount father is in luck--he marries off his most beautiful daughter to a Marquis! Even the 20 Cha daughter winds up with the local count/earl. As you can see, the families quickly normalise back to a usualish distribution amongst daughters. If we followed the Marquis's family, the daughters might even wind up married to dukes (where that perfect 22 Cha, while still not exactly common, is more likely), and the Duke's 22 Cha daughter could easily be in the running for Queen)
While it is certainly aristocratic and oppressive in many ways, in one way, it is quite interesting that in this way, a peasant girl can have a great-great-granddaughter who becomes queen, all through legitimate marriages rather than involving bastards.[/SBLOCK]
Fenris
Adventurer
[sblock=Rystil]
"Moral Flexability" the line from the main character in Gross Point Blank on why he became an assassin And I still think it fits the way I was envisioning play him anyway.
Genetics:
Your world, your genes And it keeps the society rolling like it needs to. I'll say the the d'Toussaints produce above-average daughters consistantly, or have enough flukes that there is at least that perception.
I will say that you are missing two possible elements here. One is that mitochondrial DNA is not the only direct genetic carryover, the daughter always gets one X chromosome. Or did you mean un-recombined, and thus direct from the grandmother?
In any case, I could easily see in the Rowaini environment, genetic pressures that would allow other cases. As I said though, you world, your genetics, just offering some additional possibilities.
Consider X chromosome inactivation. Different regions of mammalian X chromosomes get "turned off" so as not to duplicate them. There is certianly enough genetic pressure on this population that if mother's genes are most important to beauty, and beauty is a fitness adapation (which you said it is, since ugly or plain daughters are often killed), there could evolve an selective adaptation where the mother's X chromosome is more often left on and the father's inactivated.
Additionally, the synergy between a polygenic trait and sex-influence could produce the effects you want. Again, the genetic "fluke" you speak of, a stunning daughter born to a plain mother is well nigh impossible under a straight genetics linkage.
But consider a polygenic line with say 4 alleles, and thown in sex-linkage and the 4 alleles in 16 combinations, becomes 32 when you account for sex-influence. And the best part, the male and female phenotypes can be completely unrelated (Str/Con for men and beauty for women). And that's from a single locus!
Sorry ,I get carried away. I should probably disclose that I have a Ph.D. in Molecular Genetics so these kinds of things tickle many of my fancies
Again, your world, I am not arguing with how you have things set up, the world-structure takes all precedent, I am merely suggesting a few changes that would explain the genetic phenomena a bit more robustly.
[/sblock]
"Moral Flexability" the line from the main character in Gross Point Blank on why he became an assassin
And I still think it fits the way I was envisioning play him anyway.Genetics:
Your world, your genes
And it keeps the society rolling like it needs to. I'll say the the d'Toussaints produce above-average daughters consistantly, or have enough flukes that there is at least that perception.I will say that you are missing two possible elements here. One is that mitochondrial DNA is not the only direct genetic carryover, the daughter always gets one X chromosome. Or did you mean un-recombined, and thus direct from the grandmother?
In any case, I could easily see in the Rowaini environment, genetic pressures that would allow other cases. As I said though, you world, your genetics, just offering some additional possibilities.
Consider X chromosome inactivation. Different regions of mammalian X chromosomes get "turned off" so as not to duplicate them. There is certianly enough genetic pressure on this population that if mother's genes are most important to beauty, and beauty is a fitness adapation (which you said it is, since ugly or plain daughters are often killed), there could evolve an selective adaptation where the mother's X chromosome is more often left on and the father's inactivated.
Additionally, the synergy between a polygenic trait and sex-influence could produce the effects you want. Again, the genetic "fluke" you speak of, a stunning daughter born to a plain mother is well nigh impossible under a straight genetics linkage.
But consider a polygenic line with say 4 alleles, and thown in sex-linkage and the 4 alleles in 16 combinations, becomes 32 when you account for sex-influence. And the best part, the male and female phenotypes can be completely unrelated (Str/Con for men and beauty for women). And that's from a single locus!
Sorry ,I get carried away. I should probably disclose that I have a Ph.D. in Molecular Genetics so these kinds of things tickle many of my fancies
Again, your world, I am not arguing with how you have things set up, the world-structure takes all precedent, I am merely suggesting a few changes that would explain the genetic phenomena a bit more robustly.
[/sblock]
Rystil Arden
First Post
[SBLOCK=Fenris]Hah, a geneticist 
Remind me not to get into a discussion about the genetics of Scandaj or the Praetorians then--they're even more complicated than for Rowaini (as you might imagine based on the fact that Nibelan and Tralg sire Nibelan and Tralg sons just fine on Narlsewomen or the fact that the genetically-different Archons have recently changed the entire Praetorian society). Myself, I'm working on my PhD in AI, but I know a smattering of other stuff.
I did indeed mean direct carryover with no crossing over when I referenced the mitochondrial DNA.
I was actually considering the same sex-biased X-chromosome inactivation you mentioned (and yep, I definitely included the whole killing thing partly because it made sense culturally and partly so I could explain biologically why beauty was such a compelling fitness adaptation), and it was definitely going to be polygenic in my mind (I never go for one gene--one gene is just so boring and simplistic, like high school bio tries to convince people genetics works, though I usually don't mention the polygeny offhandedly because it hurts most people's heads to think of it that way), though I've kept it a bit more nebulous than your examples--I never picked an exact number like 4 or anything. The reason I mentioned none of this before is that I generally consider going heavily into science terms without testing the water first to be a bad idea--I put out mitochondrial DNA in the last post for just that purpose More people would be confused by this terminology than enlightened, I think.
As to the "fluke", I do intend for it to be well-night impossible--I picked a fluke that was incredibly incredibly unlikely (say 1 in 1,000,000,000) to represent the extreme perturbation of our population by an incredibly beneficial and coincidental mutation (or the act of an Angel or Saint, since we have divine intervention in the game, unlike in real genetics). And even despite such a perturbation, the genetically-biased social order remains fairly solid and normalises after only a few generations. Yay genetics![/SBLOCK]
Remind me not to get into a discussion about the genetics of Scandaj or the Praetorians then--they're even more complicated than for Rowaini (as you might imagine based on the fact that Nibelan and Tralg sire Nibelan and Tralg sons just fine on Narlsewomen or the fact that the genetically-different Archons have recently changed the entire Praetorian society). Myself, I'm working on my PhD in AI, but I know a smattering of other stuff. I did indeed mean direct carryover with no crossing over when I referenced the mitochondrial DNA.
I was actually considering the same sex-biased X-chromosome inactivation you mentioned (and yep, I definitely included the whole killing thing partly because it made sense culturally and partly so I could explain biologically why beauty was such a compelling fitness adaptation), and it was definitely going to be polygenic in my mind (I never go for one gene--one gene is just so boring and simplistic, like high school bio tries to convince people genetics works, though I usually don't mention the polygeny offhandedly because it hurts most people's heads to think of it that way), though I've kept it a bit more nebulous than your examples--I never picked an exact number like 4 or anything. The reason I mentioned none of this before is that I generally consider going heavily into science terms without testing the water first to be a bad idea--I put out mitochondrial DNA in the last post for just that purpose
More people would be confused by this terminology than enlightened, I think.As to the "fluke", I do intend for it to be well-night impossible--I picked a fluke that was incredibly incredibly unlikely (say 1 in 1,000,000,000) to represent the extreme perturbation of our population by an incredibly beneficial and coincidental mutation (or the act of an Angel or Saint, since we have divine intervention in the game, unlike in real genetics). And even despite such a perturbation, the genetically-biased social order remains fairly solid and normalises after only a few generations. Yay genetics![/SBLOCK]
Fenris
Adventurer
[sblock=Rystil]
OK, let's see in order for the Tralg and Nibelans to bred with Narlsewomen, indicates that all three are actaully one species. Pre-zygotic barriers are predominantly habitat and behavioral isolation, but no mechanical or gametic isolation. No apparent post-zygotic barriers exist as the offspring are fertile. Techincally "hybrids" would be between two species, here I think we have the case of extreme phenotypes with disreuptive selection (as opposed to directional selection on Rowain).
As an aside I thought of an out for the d'Toussaints, aggresive female infantcide could lead to only beautiful daughters being known, they just wouldn't come around often
Back to Scandaj. So how to get one species, with three distinct biotypes whose males all breed true from a single stock of females who share a common biotype with one of the males. Additionally two of the biotypes only produce male offspring. Assuming a standard meiotic gametic distribution, Narlse should dominate Scandaj, unless they are unable to maintain their monopoly of females (which it seems they cannot).
Some hypotheses (and I can't wait to see what is really going on )
There are sets of linked genes, two sets of alleles. These code for the proteins and transcription factors that direct development as Tralgs or Nibelans. Possibilties include Tralgs and Nibelans existing as YY creatures (and the lack of X genes explaining their defects), thus producing only Y gamettes. Alternitively some biochemistry within the Tralg/Nibelan causes the production of defective X gamettes. Third, he sets of alleles that dictate Tralgness/Nibelanness are lethal in an XX environment, some Y component being required for survival or inactivation of the lethal genes.
Or going farther out. Some aspect of endoreduplication occured at some point leading to additinal chromosomes in Tralg/Nibelans, but only for sex-chromosomes. Additionally there are now three sex chromsomes, a triploid state that is tolerated in these beings (being XYY). During meiosis, one gamete will get one sex chromosome and other will get two. Non-disjunction in the sex chromosomes is quite common in Tralg/Nibelans leading to ther perpetuation of gametes with two sex chromosomes. The gametic combinations then would be X, Y, XY, or YY. Any gamete bearing a single sex chromosome will fail to form a normal zygote, since it would not be triploid for the sex chromosome. This thus prevents the birth of any females. Gamettes that are XY fuse to form a XXY zygote. These zygotes are likewise non-viable as two Y chromsomes are required to stabalize the Tralg/Nibelan biotype alleles. This leaves YY gametes as the only viable gametes, and indeed other sperm tend to have defects and have flagelation malfucntions. This leaves the YY sperm as the predominate sperm and when it fertilizes the Narlsewoman egg yields an XYY zygotes that can become a Tralg/Nibelan.
You piqued my scientific curiosity. Now lets here what really happens. OK, when you have time, after the knight and jester are done.
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OK, let's see in order for the Tralg and Nibelans to bred with Narlsewomen, indicates that all three are actaully one species. Pre-zygotic barriers are predominantly habitat and behavioral isolation, but no mechanical or gametic isolation. No apparent post-zygotic barriers exist as the offspring are fertile. Techincally "hybrids" would be between two species, here I think we have the case of extreme phenotypes with disreuptive selection (as opposed to directional selection on Rowain).
As an aside I thought of an out for the d'Toussaints, aggresive female infantcide could lead to only beautiful daughters being known, they just wouldn't come around often
Back to Scandaj. So how to get one species, with three distinct biotypes whose males all breed true from a single stock of females who share a common biotype with one of the males. Additionally two of the biotypes only produce male offspring. Assuming a standard meiotic gametic distribution, Narlse should dominate Scandaj, unless they are unable to maintain their monopoly of females (which it seems they cannot).
Some hypotheses (and I can't wait to see what is really going on
)There are sets of linked genes, two sets of alleles. These code for the proteins and transcription factors that direct development as Tralgs or Nibelans. Possibilties include Tralgs and Nibelans existing as YY creatures (and the lack of X genes explaining their defects), thus producing only Y gamettes. Alternitively some biochemistry within the Tralg/Nibelan causes the production of defective X gamettes. Third, he sets of alleles that dictate Tralgness/Nibelanness are lethal in an XX environment, some Y component being required for survival or inactivation of the lethal genes.
Or going farther out. Some aspect of endoreduplication occured at some point leading to additinal chromosomes in Tralg/Nibelans, but only for sex-chromosomes. Additionally there are now three sex chromsomes, a triploid state that is tolerated in these beings (being XYY). During meiosis, one gamete will get one sex chromosome and other will get two. Non-disjunction in the sex chromosomes is quite common in Tralg/Nibelans leading to ther perpetuation of gametes with two sex chromosomes. The gametic combinations then would be X, Y, XY, or YY. Any gamete bearing a single sex chromosome will fail to form a normal zygote, since it would not be triploid for the sex chromosome. This thus prevents the birth of any females. Gamettes that are XY fuse to form a XXY zygote. These zygotes are likewise non-viable as two Y chromsomes are required to stabalize the Tralg/Nibelan biotype alleles. This leaves YY gametes as the only viable gametes, and indeed other sperm tend to have defects and have flagelation malfucntions. This leaves the YY sperm as the predominate sperm and when it fertilizes the Narlsewoman egg yields an XYY zygotes that can become a Tralg/Nibelan.
You piqued my scientific curiosity. Now lets here what really happens. OK, when you have time, after the knight and jester are done.
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