Recurring comment about Marvel Heroic RP that seems wrong to me

[Blue]

You and others seem to be expecting raw facts to trump people's feelings and opinions on a subject with emotional resonance. You may be in for a long wait on that.

Raw facts always trump people feeling and opinions. Nothing needs be done for this to be true. I could wish to fly, yet just a strongly felt opinion will not make it so by itself.

As for me, I care about people proselytizing things that aren't true. Someone could believe the earth is flat. But if they say it in a public forum I will do my best to set the record straight each time it come up, at least partially so that others are not led astray. I can hope the poster will see it, but as you say I may be in for a long wait.

 

[niklinna]

Well gosh now I kinda want to play this game that apparently has no system, or maybe a system that isn't a system, or perhaps a system that some people just don't like and therefore it can't possibly count as a system.

 

[niklinna]

Raw facts always trump people feeling and opinions. Nothing needs be done for this to be true. I could wish to fly, yet just a strongly felt opinion will not make it so by itself.

As for me, I care about people proselytizing things that aren't true. Someone could believe the earth is flat. But if they say it in a public forum I will do my best to set the record straight each time it come up, at least partially so that others are not led astray. I can hope the poster will see it, but as you say I may be in for a long wait.

Or: "That's not a horse" – <whinny> <KICK>

 

[Blue]

Well gosh now I kinda want to play this game that apparently has no system, or maybe a system that isn't a system, or perhaps a system that some people just don't like and therefore it can't possibly count as a system.

Oh, actual discussion!

Marvel Heroic Roleplay has a good system for most things. It's Cortex+, and I'm sure there is a documetn for minor changes to update it to the newer Cortex Prime.

The point we are going back and forth on was about the character creation rules specifically. Personally, my opinion (but I haven't read design diaries or anything to back this up) was that given the IP, the producer really expected players to want to play existing Marvel characters. This is just a call, but it based on the first big campaign they published: Civil War. Civil War strongly benefits from heroes embedded into a network of others, something existing characters would have. So there wasn't as much priority given to a mechanically robust character building system. Especially because unlike games like D&D, character balance was not a design point. Characters of wildly different powers could be together, just like the comic books, and the players of the all would get spotlight time and have fun.

Personally, I think they should have given a bit more focus on it though, especially as when the game was first coming out there were plenty of existing Marvel heroes without datafiles (what they called character sheets) in addition to whatever percentage of players would be happiest with their own creations.

It's a bit like the Background creation rules in D&D 5e, where for the background feature you need to look to the other backgrounds to get what looks right. Now, the system needed to be able to create characters with a wide range, so a point buy system or other designed to enforce balance probably wouldn't have been a good fit - players needed to create a new Hulk, or a new Squirrel Girl, and those aren't the same power level.

 

[pemerton]

Are you even vaguely under the impression peoples use of terms matches up with a dictionary definition in any consistent way?

I am more than merely vaguely under the impression that, if someone says this RPG does not allow for character creation, they mean just what they have said. And hence can be refuted by pointing out that, in fact, the RPG has 4 pages setting out a character creation procedure.

But not seeing it as a system, no matter how you feel about it, does.

Someone who can't see a four page procedure, set out systematically with a checklist, as a system, just because they don't like it, has some sort of cognitive deficit. I mean, I can't imagine many contemporary time and motion experts, and designers of factories, advocate pre-Henry Ford systems of production. But I'm sure that they are capable of seeing them as systems (eg Wikipedia refers to the "putting out system", even though no one today would advocate this system for achieving large scale production).

your disagreement with their perspective is not going to change it

Whether a 4 page process, guided by a check-list, with a worked example, constitutes a system is not a matter of perspective. The fact that some people find it an unsatisfactory system doesn't change that.

 

[pemerton]

You and others seem to be expecting raw facts to trump people's feelings and opinions on a subject with emotional resonance.

Correct! Where something is a matter of fact, I expect the facts to trump - in the sense of, correct - wishful thinking and belief led by desire. Are you arguing that we should decline asserting facts because some people find them hurtful?

I mean, that can make sense in some limited contexts (eg perhaps there's no need to let a person on their deathbed know some other sad news that has just come to light) but doesn't seem tenable as a general proposition.

And that's before I even get to the question: what is the emotional resonance of the subject whether or not a particular RPG allows for character creation

 

[pemerton]

Well gosh now I kinda want to play this game that apparently has no system, or maybe a system that isn't a system, or perhaps a system that some people just don't like and therefore it can't possibly count as a system.

It's a fun system. You can read about some actual play here, and for Heroic Fantasy here and [url=https://www.enworld.org/threads/middle-earth-lotr-rpging-using-cortex-heroic.670013/]here.

The way in which the Doom Pool serves multiple purposes - opposition for otherwise unopposed actions; pacing; a source of buffs for the GM - creates some complexity in play, and some risks of wonkiness if the GM doesn't use some care. And with tactically-minded players action resolution can slow down a bit (compared to eg Prince Valiant) as they work through their options for spending plot points.

But it is colourful, and moves through the action nicely. I would characterise it as anti-gritty, which suits some genres (including Marvel super heroes) pretty nicely.

 

[niklinna]

Oh, actual discussion!

Marvel Heroic Roleplay has a good system for most things. It's Cortex+, and I'm sure there is a documetn for minor changes to update it to the newer Cortex Prime.

The point we are going back and forth on was about the character creation rules specifically. Personally, my opinion (but I haven't read design diaries or anything to back this up) was that given the IP, the producer really expected players to want to play existing Marvel characters. This is just a call, but it based on the first big campaign they published: Civil War. Civil War strongly benefits from heroes embedded into a network of others, something existing characters would have. So there wasn't as much priority given to a mechanically robust character building system. Especially because unlike games like D&D, character balance was not a design point. Characters of wildly different powers could be together, just like the comic books, and the players of the all would get spotlight time and have fun.

Personally, I think they should have given a bit more focus on it though, especially as when the game was first coming out there were plenty of existing Marvel heroes without datafiles (what they called character sheets) in addition to whatever percentage of players would be happiest with their own creations.

It's a bit like the Background creation rules in D&D 5e, where for the background feature you need to look to the other backgrounds to get what looks right. Now, the system needed to be able to create characters with a wide range, so a point buy system or other designed to enforce balance probably wouldn't have been a good fit - players needed to create a new Hulk, or a new Squirrel Girl, and those aren't the same power level.

This sounds cool. I am not well-versed in comic book heroes, but it looks like that doesn't really matter. I could just come up with a concept and build to taste, and the premises of the game, should everybody playing accept them (a big ask I know!) mean that it would be cool. I would be interested in seeing those specific four pages, now!

 

[pemerton]

Again, as I've noted, only if you consider modelling a system.

<snip>

I can use modelling in every game ever to produce characters; that doesn't mean its a system in those, and the fact MHR authorized only makes it a system in the way Rule Zero is a system in a lot of games--which is to say only by how its defined there.

How are monsters built in RuneQuest? By "modelling", as in the GM assigns the abilities that will make the monster perform, in play, as its fiction demands of it. This is the same way that NPCs and creatures are built in 4e D&D.

I've never heard it asserted that RQ, and 4e D&D, don't allow for the creation of monsters, NPCs and the like.

By saying there's "no system" in MHRP, all I hear is that there is no points buy, and no character classes. But there are guidelines for writing Distinctions and Milestones; there are pages of powers and specialities, with descriptors that allows you to match the right one to your fictional character (eg The Knight has Weapon d8 with their sword, and is a Combat Expert d8 but not a Combat Master d10); and there are also lists of SFX and limits, again with discussions of what these model. And further examples can be taken from existing characters, as the rulebook notes (and provides a worked example of, on OM114).

@Arilyn is correct that it is not a system that creates its own game, like How can I eke the most performance out of my 100 build points? or What will my random lifepath turn out to be? That doesn't mean it's not a system.

 

[pemerton]

This sounds cool. I am not well-versed in comic book heroes, but it looks like that doesn't really matter. I could just come up with a concept and build to taste, and the premises of the game, should everybody playing accept them (a big ask I know!) mean that it would be cool. I would be interested in seeing those specific four pages, now!

The four pages point you to the lists of power and specialties, which fill more than 4 pages. Also helpful is the example of adapting an existing character (on OM114) and the extensive discussion of Milestones (OM105-OM109).

I have PC sheets linked on both those Heroic Fantasy actual plays I pointed you to, which (if you're interested) will give you a sense of what characters in the system look like (though on those sheets I am using specialties (=, roughly, skills) that suit fantasy rather than Marvel Heroes).