Red Box Monsters: Hints of Changes to Come?

[Anathos]

I believe the trigger is "drops 0 hitpoints", so they are doomed no matter what. I'd let the savage charge fly, it sounds very orc like and not at all out of character. Let the players take OAs, but unless they have a way to stop the movement it's going to get it's charge off. Vicious and deadly... and very scary even for a minion.

If the trigger is "drops to 0 hp" as you say, then ANY amount of damage will stop the charge. Dealing damage leads to the "resolve the effects of damage" step before the charge continues, at which point the monster will be found to have 0 hp or fewer, causing it to drop. Of course, if Savage Demise is a Trait or At-Will power it gets a new action to take before it drops, so it almost doesn't matter which interpretation is correct.

 

[interwyrm]

If the trigger is "drops to 0 hp" as you say, then ANY amount of damage will stop the charge. Dealing damage leads to the "resolve the effects of damage" step before the charge continues, at which point the monster will be found to have 0 hp or fewer, causing it to drop. Of course, if Savage Demise is a Trait or At-Will power it gets a new action to take before it drops, so it almost doesn't matter which interpretation is correct.

1. Hit Orc (which has 8 hp left)
2. Roll 10 damage.
3. Interrupt charge triggered.
4. Charge provokes opportunity attack.
5. Opportunity attack hits.
6a. Roll 10 damage.
7a. Orc already used interrupt.
8a. Orc dies.
6b. Roll 6 damage. (Orc has 2hp left)
7b. Orc continues charge.
8b. Orc hits target.
9b. Target dies. (Or doesn't)
10b. Orc takes 10 damage from step 2, and dies.

The damage doesn't get applied until after the orc's action. Additional damage incurred during that action does get applied.

 

[Nikosandros]

Of course, if Savage Demise is a Trait or At-Will power it gets a new action to take before it drops, so it almost doesn't matter which interpretation is correct.

No, because the orc can't take two immediate actions in one turn.

 

[Anathos]

1. Hit Orc (which has 8 hp left)
2. Roll 10 damage.
3. Interrupt charge triggered.
4. Charge provokes opportunity attack.
5. Opportunity attack hits.
6a. Roll 10 damage.
7a. Orc already used interrupt.
8a. Orc dies.
6b. Roll 6 damage. (Orc has 2hp left)
7b. Orc continues charge.
8b. Orc hits target.
9b. Target dies. (Or doesn't)
10b. Orc takes 10 damage from step 2, and dies.

The damage doesn't get applied until after the orc's action. Additional damage incurred during that action does get applied.

While I agree with most of this (all of it if the trigger is "takes damage that would drop it to 0 hp"), if the trigger is "drops to 0 hp" then it has already taken the damage and all that's left to resolve is the effect, specifically death. Therefore it would have 0 hp when the charge happens and any damage dealt would cause a reevaluation (and death).

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Of course you can. Just disable the sourcebook the outdated monsters are in, e.g. MM1.

True enough, though some of the MM1 monsters are still very competitive (Balhanaroth, Eye of Flame Beholder, etc.) and I wouldn't want to lose access to them. As well, it wouldn't help in getting rid of some of the older monsters from other sources (Dungeon, adventures).

I really wish there was some feature that allowed you to hide individual monsters - so far, when updating their damage, I've just been renaming them with a "+" at the end of their name, but that doesn't work to distinguish the MM1 versions from the essential versions.

 

[interwyrm]

While I agree with most of this (all of it if the trigger is "takes damage that would drop it to 0 hp"), if the trigger is "drops to 0 hp" then it has already taken the damage and all that's left to resolve is the effect, specifically death. Therefore it would have 0 hp when the charge happens and any damage dealt would cause a reevaluation (and death).

It's an interrupt. Let's say B is the trigger for C.

A.
B. <- trigger.

Now the flow goes to: A, C, B

If it were a reaction instead, it gets resolved as A, B, C

For the orc, the trigger is the damage, not the death. The interrupt happens before the damage applies. As a side note, this conversation is making me worry about what will happen at a game table with the new orcs.

 

[Scribble]

While I agree with most of this (all of it if the trigger is "takes damage that would drop it to 0 hp"), if the trigger is "drops to 0 hp" then it has already taken the damage and all that's left to resolve is the effect, specifically death. Therefore it would have 0 hp when the charge happens and any damage dealt would cause a reevaluation (and death).

It's an interrupt, so the Orc isn't at 0 HP- it happens before the action that triggered it happens.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I remember a very similar discussion when PH3 came out regarding the minotaur, and what happened if as his/her interupt the minotaur used a power that healed it so that it was never reduced to zero.

IMHO, having interupts that are triggered by death (or by damage causing death) are quite clunky, but the only way to get a creature to be able to do something with his triggered action. I would recommend working out (with your group) how you think the rules are supposed to work ahead of time, as some the interactions can be a bit complicated and a little strange.

 

[TikkchikFenTikktikk]

As has been said (it's worth saying so I'll say it again):

This all started with MM3 and rules updates over the summer.

There are new monster creation guidelines and damage per level tables that can be used to adjust pre-MM3 monsters.

Also, monster ability design philosophy changed during this time period. There are no hard and fast rules for this, but in general

• monsters inflict daze/stun affects less,
• solos have ways to avoid daze/stun/prone locks from the PCs, and
• rather than make monsters longer lived, they make them harder hitting.

Applying these "philosophy changes" to pre-MM3 monsters can be a lot of work, or it might barely be necessary. Some niche monsters are OK and don't really deserve a full update treatment, but they're nice to have available in 4E even if they aren't perfect. So that is why they haven't been "deprecated" or removed from the DDI tools.

 

[MrGrenadine]

5. Oozes
Here's one for the simulationist side: the last sentence of the Ooze trait for both the Gelatinous Cube and the Green Slime reads, "The cube/slime cannot be knocked prone."

The whole list makes me happy, but this reasonable, long-overdue change makes me positively elated.

I'm really looking forward to the Essentials improvements over the next year or so.