Redclaws Protectors OOC

[Redclaw]

Zurai's got the right idea, but there are a few other factors as well. First of all, it's the first method of stat selection listed in the PHB, so I figure it's worth checking out. They give the modified point buy system, but it starts with the 'standard array'.

Secondly, I have had some success with the old 'elite array' in 3.x, using 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, and so had no hesitation about this new, slightly more powerful version.

I also much prefer a more organic set of numbers, where it isn't one uber-important stat maxed and everything else dumped. Sure it happens once in a while, but it's too overly specialized for me to see that character as a successful hero. The other standard issue is that every stat comes out even when most people buy their own, and that seems too fabricated to me. A few odd numbers just feel more right.

 

[Graf]

It's your decision.
I sense you've made up your mind.
I'll not trouble you with further discussion of it.

Having said that my basic sense of fun forces me to suggest that you reconsider granting some sort of flexibility for character/race combos that aren't optimal (i.e. teifling clerics).

The pregen in my KotS game is +4 to hit with his attacks when a bad set of rolls strike he's misses for round after round after round.

With your assigned stats Penance is gonna be +3.

 

[Redclaw]

The pregen in my KotS game is +4 to hit with his attacks when a bad set of rolls strike he's misses for round after round after round.

With your assigned stats Penance is gonna be +3.

Dude, he rolled a 1, a 7 and a 4. Those wouldn't hit if he had a 20 wis. The difference is one extra hit out of 20 rolls, not a magical boost that is going to make those misses hits. I honestly don't think the writers at WOTC intended everyone to have an 18 or better in their primary stat, which is why they suggest the standard array. If people start missing too often, I'll find some other way to adjust it.

Besides, part of the tactics of 4E is picking which defense to target. I've seen a number of builds coming in that have all powers targetting AC or Ref. I would shift that up so that you're going after a probable weakness whenever possible. If I were fighting kobolds I'd probably try to target fort or will, rather than ref, for example. That will likely do more for your chances than an extra 2 points on a stat.

 

[Graf]

I've completely accepted your ruling and am re-writing Mirna. But it seems like you want a response so...
[sblock]And if he'd rolled 10s he'd be getting 14s. Penance will average an attack roll of 13.5. Clerics don't have miss or effect powers, and they don't have area of effect attacks (so they don't get multiple dice). If your average attack roll is a miss, and you're playing a cleric that means most rounds your action is ~"do nothing".

What other defenses is he going to target? AC?
I know you're just starting out and you don't know the powers yet but Cleric at-wills only target those two defenses.
It's not like sg is a moron for targeting reflex. He targets reflex because that's the only powers that are available to clerics.

And I'm 100% sure that wotc built the game assuming most people in the party would have 18's and 20s in their prime stats. They've built the whole structure to encourage it.
People didn't like MAD and they've rebuilt the system so you don't need to stress about it. A wizard with high int and wis can dump dex and cha and still be perfectly playable. A rogue with a high dex can dump int and have all their skills. (this annoyed me no end with Kil'x/Kason)
You can play whatever you feel like and everyone, basically, will wind up more or less the same already.
Point buy just allows people to put their own touch on a character (or helps a bit if you've made a sub-optimal choice, b/c you can "dump" your bonus stats and get back some of those points to buy up your primary).

The standard array thing is just so newbies can get started without freaking out. "rank these six things in order" is a way to get over the mental hump of picking stats. It turns all the complex math into something a novice can grapple with and overcome.

I appreciate that you've got two groups you want to be completely balanced.
I appreiciate you've taken a conservative view.
I appreciate you're running multiple games (which is very cool and much appreciated) and want to keep things as simple as possible.

I'm not trying to be troublesome. I just felt bad for him because you didn't warn us.

You've made your decision.
I've accepted it.
I swear you'll hear no more from me.
[/sblock]

 

[Redclaw]

I'm going to appreciatively aknowledge your acceptance and respectfully disagree with some of your assumptions. I hope that you all can find enjoyment in the character creation process using the standard array.

 

[Zurai]

Besides, part of the tactics of 4E is picking which defense to target. I've seen a number of builds coming in that have all powers targetting AC or Ref. I would shift that up so that you're going after a probable weakness whenever possible.

To be fair, about the only classes that get more than 2 choices on a regular basis are Wizards and Warlocks. About 90% of the Ranger powers target AC; I've found one that targets Ref and one that targets Fort. There are no Ref or Fort attacks that I can recall offhand for Rangers before Paragon tier, and no Will attacks at all.

Picking and choosing your target defense isn't really something that can be done for most classes. Everyone gets a couple choices, eventually, but most don't get a wide variety.

 

[Redclaw]

To be fair, about the only classes that get more than 2 choices on a regular basis are Wizards and Warlocks. About 90% of the Ranger powers target AC; I've found one that targets Ref and one that targets Fort. There are no Ref or Fort attacks that I can recall offhand for Rangers before Paragon tier, and no Will attacks at all.

Picking and choosing your target defense isn't really something that can be done for most classes. Everyone gets a couple choices, eventually, but most don't get a wide variety.

Point taken, but I still am resistant to the idea that one needs an 18 or 20 in the class' primary stat to be an effective combatant.

 

[Zurai]

I think an 18 in the primary stat is assumed, but I'm willing to wait and see how it plays out. I don't think it will break a character so utterly as to make it unplayable, but clerics (in particular) rely very much on hitting; even Mike Mearls has said one of the things they're fixing in the PHB2 is making clerics less reliant on hitting to buff or heal.

Anyway, I'm not trying to change anything here, just pointing out some observations on the system. I'm adopting a "playtest-and-see" approach to the whole edition. There's a lot of stuff I like and a lot of stuff I dislike, so far, but who knows? It may play like a dream.

 

[Graf]

New version of Mirna up.
(There were some errors as well that I corrected. The new version should be close to 100%.)
Looking forward to playing .

...
Since pranking around the temple is one of her favorite things to do she'd almost certainly have run into Penance. Maybe she witnessed one of his devotions to the Raven Queen and persuaded him into helping her with the "devout girl spouts nonsense" prank?
(it seems like it might appeal to him -- and he'd be the best sort of cohort in that he's above reproach)

Or maybe he caught her setting up a prank but didn't give her away (so she "owes" him?)

Sound both good to me

Cool! So we're not "best friends". But we get along enough to have pulled stunts before.
(Given that Mirna has no associates in town in her age group that actually probably makes you her "only friend"... Not that she cares. Or lets on that she cares anyway.)

I -think- we're all connected.
Osric -> herb merchants -> Immeral
---A bit weak, but he's probably known around town for being generally trustworthy. No?
Immeral -> dinners with Phillian -> Mirna
Valadmir -> tended/stalked by -> Mirna (after his accident)
Penance -> pulled pranks with -> Mirna (who "owes" him)


To get back to the tactics strategy/character build conversation: It looks like you can assist a ritual caster without having ritual casting (pg 299) so it doesn't look like we need more than one or two people with ritual caster (Mirna's got Arcane and Nature, she could take religion as well but that's Penance's turf).

But it also says you can copy from other people's ritual books (pg 298) just by paying for the cost of the ritual. So if we pick different rituals then we could all eventually have a pretty decent ritual book (for the cost of some gp).
I took animal messenger (instead of comprehend languages) because it seemed really useful for getting the group together (and it's a fun image -> girl in tower talking to birds) but if Immeral wants to do ritual caster and get that one then I'll go back to comprehend.
Either seems fun, which fits your character better?

Other questions:

• Right now (in terms of her backstory) Mirna doesn't have a staff, rituals or any "gear" or money. Is that where we should start? Are we going to push the timeline of her life forward a bit so she's got that stuff? Should I do that? If so could I have some guidance on what would be acceptable ways to do so?
• When she does get the "staff of defense" she'll have an encounter power (pg 157-158) that lets her increase her AC by one as an immediate interrupt after she sees the damage roll (and I'm assuming the to-hit roll).
  Basically my impression is that you can "cancel" on attack vs AC if it's off by x.
  (where x=con bonus, in this case 1). Does this match with your interpretation Redclaw?
  If it does, instead of pausing the game (immediate interrupts are making me a bit crazy in KotS) should we just say, "if it applies Mirna uses it". (So the first time an encounter an attack vs AC misses by 1 she'll "cancel it"). Or would you prefer if I just remind you after the fact?

 

[Zurai]

Either seems fun, which fits your character better?

I'd forgotten about being able to assist rituals without having Ritual Casting. I think that's the way to go with Immeral. I'll just pick up the two Ritual skills he doesn't have (Religion and Heal) and he can assist any ritual that needs casting. He'll probably pick up Religion through a Cleric multiclass, and Heal through simple Skill Training. There aren't a lot of Heroic tier feats I want, anyhow. I'm gonna grab Precise Hunter at 4; I think it's a bad feat but it fits the character and I'm willing to give it a shot (pun intended). I'm still not certain about my level 1 feat. May go ahead and swap it to Acolyte of the Faith or whatever the Cleric multi feat is.

I definitely like the concept of Immeral not being a spell/ritual caster himself but being able to support any kind of ritual as a secondary caster. Thanks for suggesting it.