D&D General Redesigning DnD 5e with no Bonus Actions

[billd91]

I imagine that's the sort of argument that led to bonus actions being kept in the final version of 5e... And yet Mearls regrets going with that and thinks it's better to ditch them.

But him regretting them doesn’t mean he’s right. People designing things often have criteria or aesthetics different from users and regret that they didn’t achieve high levels of elegance in their designs. That doesn’t mean their designs don’t work or need to be replaced.

 

[Corinnguard]

Have any of the 5e variants (Level Up, Tales of the Valiant, Nimble 5e, etc) done away with Bonus Actions?

Level Up still has bonus actions.

 

[Weiley31]

The only time I feel like Bonus Actions stink or what not is when it came to Dual Weapon fighting or when you have a "Pet" type feature subclass. (No, not the original Beast Master Ranger take that was terrible. Which is why I always considered the Revised Ranger to have the most superior take on having a pet subclass.). Thankfully, Dual Weapon fighting is a bit better now thanks to Nick and light weapons/Dual Welder.

The first playtest of dndnext had what mearls suggested: the war cleric dwarf could cast a spell and attack with one action.

And we eventually got that a few times ala the Tasha's Bladesinger Extra Attack feature. Which honestly, ALL gish type characters in 5E should have access to.

 

[Distracted DM]

But him regretting them doesn’t mean he’s right.

I think it just means that you disagree with assessment that they're a poor design choice? I think he's right. You think he's wrong. Doesn't seem more complex than that

 

[Zaukrie]

I'm all in on this with @mearls ..... put this stuff into moves or actions. So much easier.

 

[Stormonu]

Curious to hear more why he’s off base on this. Bonus Actions have tripped up my newer players, but it’s usually figured out eventually.

Yes, that and reactions can take players some time to learn, and a good reason to have them somewhat rare at lower levels until they have some system mastery under their belt.

However, bonus actions fulfill a design space where they allow for customization or enhancement of regular action - things like turning a "walk" into a jog from cunning action, or the fighter's action surge to make an extra singular attack or second wind to still be able to attack but also heal at the same time. Even things like allowing the wizard to throw an offensive spell and activate some sort of defense at the same time, or to augment the effects of some spell without actually allowing two to be cast in the same turn.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

Guess that some (Bonus) action can be worded similar to fighters Action surge and some just molded into Action.

This means the "Used to be Bonus Action spells abilities" always have to be used before another action. That might be ok for effects that are intended to boost your next attack, that is quite restrictive and limits tactics for any other Bonus Action-style actions. For example:

Misty step.
Action. Teleport 30ft,
you can immediate take another action except casting a spell with a spell slot.

So you can't attack someone and then Misty Step? Not interested.

Hunters mark/hex/divine favor/smite
Action.
you can immediate take Attack action or cast a cantrip

I suppose this can work, but it still does not allow the Ranger to cast Conjure Barrage, then Hunter's Mark whoever is left standing. (That is a bad example due to two spells, but it essentially disallows other Actions before casting Hunter's Mark.

Wild shape.
Action. Turn into an animal.
Immediately take another action from animals stat block.

So you can't cast Call Lighting on Round 1, then turn into an eagle on Round 2 and use the Magic action to use your Call Lightning while flying?

Rage.
Action. You gain Rage.
immediately make an Attack action

This one is would work ok.

Dash.
Action. Move your speed. Or move twice your speed in a straight line over non-difficult terrain.

Dash is already an Action (unless you have another ability making it a Bonus action.)

Flurry of blows.
Add 2 unarmed attacks to your Attack action.

Sure, this would work. The wording would be something like "Make 3 attacks, at least 2 of which must be unarmed strikes."

GWM,
when you score a crit during your Attack action, add one more attack with that weapon to your Attack action.

Sure.

(Mass)Healing word.
Action.
after casting healing word you can cast a cantrip or take Attack action

Again, like Misty Step, this suffers from not being able to choose when you cast the spell vs the other action.

Command a pet/companion/mount/familiar/whatever
Give command(s) to your companion(s).
you can take any action after this except another Command Action.

The wording of abilities like this would be so weird, cascading into other multiple actions. Can you Command your pet, then use that action to cast Hunter's Mark, then use that given action to make the attack that Hunter's Mark gives you?

Basically we would still need to designate special terms for these "bonus action-style Actions" to limit how they are used/stacked.

I disagree with Mike Mearls on this one. Bonus actions allow for a broader array of tactics and flexibility of options on one's turn. The checks and balances that need to be created to manage how to use "multi-action Actions" may need to be more detailed than Bonus Actions as-is, with the added side effect of removing flexibility.

 

[Shardstone]

You guys need to follow Mearls patreon so you can see the actual design instead of speculating about things he is actively trying to solve.

Let's look at @mearls new designs.

Each Class has a class aciton, like a Fighter Action or a Cleric Action. These actions are actually menus.

The Fighter action may look something like

• Make an attack
• Make an ability check
• Use an item

And you pick two of these options.

If something were to modify this, say a Paladin's smite, it joins the menu.

+ Paladin's Smite. When you take your Paladin action, you can spend a spell slot to gain the following option: Make a special attack. Hit: Deal a bonus number of d8 radiant damage dice equal to the level of the spell slot you spent on the smite.

Note Mearls doesn't have this exact option, I created one so as to keep his Patreon content on his Patreon.

The idea is that your Menu expands, you gain different Menus, and sometimes you gain a rider to Menu options instead of a brand new Menu option. So Dual Wielding would be either an option under a menu or a special Dual Wielding Action: Make an attack with a weapon in your mainhand and a weapon in your offhand. The offhand attack doesn't add your Ability Score modifier to the damage roll.

The idea is to have easy buttons and then buttons that access action pools for combat. It would, ideally, make things easier for a player to navigate and easier to design new features in this system.

 

[Steampunkette]

Eh... Mike Mearls is entitled to his opinion.

I like bonus actions as a designer because it's another very simple lever to play with when designing character classes, feats, spells, etc.

Move and Swing is... y'know. Fine, I guess. Gives everyone very little options on how to spend their turn but it would certainly be faster. But with things to do that are a -third- kind of thing? Well now you can have a dual-wielding Bladelock that has to choose whether to Misty Step or go for an off-hand attack to finish off a low HP enemy or try to avoid the retaliation that might kill them.

It's such a -little- thing and it makes a lot of impact.

I suppose I wouldn't mind a 3-action system where moving is just another action you can take and each melee attack is just another action. But with it being fully interchangeable some granularity is lost, to me.

Anyway... I disagree with the assertion.

 

[briggart]

I think it just means that you disagree with assessment that they're a poor design choice? I think he's right. You think he's wrong. Doesn't seem more complex than that

My understanding is that Mearls thinks BA are garbage because they did not achieve what he hoped they would.
To me this sounds like somebody setting out to find the cure for cancer, ending up developing a drug that cures AIDS rather that cancer, and declaring it garbage that needs to go down the drain..