Redone Black Dragon from GenCon

[Aegeri]

I also just realized the dragon has skirmisher/controller hit points, not lurker hit points.

All solos have the same hit points, regardless of what creature type they are. It's: total HP=((8*level)+con)*4)

There definitely needs to be some more tweaking if second level PC's are to be able to take on this dragon.

I am not convinced 2nd level PCs should be taking on an EL+2 solo. I find this is an immeasurably swingy fight, even when the dragon isn't this well designed. For example, I've TPKed more than my fair share of test parties with the brown and white dragons as well, who are only level 3 lurker/brute respectively.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

We've seen one test that results in the dragon wiping the party twice - that doesn't mean it is a guaranteed death. I can just as easily imagine 5 monsters of level+2 taking down a party as well. My first intro to 4E, when it was previewed at Winter Fantasy, I think, involved one adventure that got TPKed by some hobgoblins, and another that got TPKed by the original black dragon. Was the problem the specific monsters, or that we were playing some pregen characters again level +2 or +3 encounters?

That's the point - this is a hard encounter, whether it is a dragon or otherwise. Is it too hard? Maybe, though I don't think we have enough experience yet to really judge.

I suspect well optimized level 2 characters will still be able to handle this guy. I suspect an average group of level 2 PCs will find it a tough fight and maybe die. I suspect an average group of level 4 PCs will be able to handle this guy.

Really, the biggest danger I see is that a fight with this guy can get too easily influenced by a few circumstances - it becomes a lot harder a fight if he surprises the party and catches them in a tight environment. How much does the DM take that into account? That's always been a tough question to answer.

Yeah, I don't know that I think it IS coming in too powerful, I was just commenting on Ungy's comment about it being OK if it was a bit over its level if it was a solo. I'd just prefer that they not do the stuff they did with CR in 3.x where mysteriously dragons were way tougher than their CR, that was dumb.

It does look like a swingy fight, but I haven't done any test runs either. There are some things about this guy though that strike me as a bit odd. Breath weapon that only targets enemies? Really? I mean OK mechanics are everything, but I'd kinda like to see the DM explaining that one to the players! lol. It is an interesting monster design. Not really sure I'd call it a lurker, but more dragon variations are always fun.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Level + 2 is supposed to be tough, but not a TPK. A fresh second level party should certainly handle a level 4 solo. Go through a lot of resources, and really be hurting, but come out ahead. It's L+4 where you start seriously expecting TPKs.

Lower levels are a bit more sensitive, though. A similar test would be 3 level 4 characters vs it - also a 'hard' encounter, but at least the party will be able to hit a bit better.


Probably it's a matter of power inflation. The MM1 monsters were fine vs PH1 characters. Against the full range of craziness now available to PCs, and the upcoming surge of power inflation promised by some of what we've seen with Essentials, this thing could be perfectly reasonable.


Try your test again with a modestly optimized post-Essentials party in November and see how it goes.

 

[FireLance]

There are some things about this guy though that strike me as a bit odd. Breath weapon that only targets enemies? Really? I mean OK mechanics are everything, but I'd kinda like to see the DM explaining that one to the players!

I personally would flavor it as a barrage of acid globules (which can be kindasorta aimed) instead of the dragon indiscriminately spraying acid into an area.

Anyway, it seems to me that the best advice for low-level melee types attacking a black dragon is: pack a reach weapon for when the dragon gets bloodied. At this level, even if your primary (non-reach) weapon is magical, giving up a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls isn't that much of a sacrifice. And giving the players an incentive to change tactics when the monster gets bloodied? Feature, not bug.

EDIT: Seriously, there are some things that you should only touch hit with a 10-foot pole(arm).

 

[Aegeri]

I also just realized the dragon has
skirmisher/controller hit points, not lurker hit points.

All solos have the same hit points, regardless of what creature type
they are. It's: total HP=((8*level)+con)*4)

There definitely needs to be some more tweaking if second level
PC's are to be able to take on this dragon.

I am not convinced 2nd level PCs should be taking on an EL+2 solo. I
find this is an immeasurably swingy fight, even when the dragon isn't
this well designed. For example, I've TPKed more than my fair share of
test parties with the brown and white dragons as well, who are only
level 3 lurker/brute respectively. Low level solo fights have also
been hilariously swingy, since forever. This creature simply punishes
it additionally because it retains its action economy so strongly.

How many normal monsters worth of threat should a solo
be? Ie, should a group be able to do an n+2 encounter with non-solos
with the same danger level as an n level encounter with a solo? In
what way is that good design?

5. At paragon and epic level, EL+2 encounters are beating the ever
living snot out of PCs. Since MM3 and adapting my encounter design I
have run one combat above EL +2 in all of my epic tier game.
All of my combats have been very challenging, with PCs being routinely
bloodied and needing to spend a good deal of powers to survive. An
EL+2 encounter is a hard encounter. It is in heroic, it is with
standard monsters, it is with a single solo and it is from heroic all
the way to epic now. DMs have got used to throwing extreme ELs at
players to have to challenge them, my paragon/epic games before were
using whopping EL+5 or even EL+7 encounters to challenge my players.

What we're seeing isn't the system not working, this is the same
system now working exactly as intended. An EL fight doesn't have
any chance of TPKign your party, but it isn't going to be utterly
irrelevant and do nothing. An EL+1 encounter is a slightly harder
battle. An EL+2 can get hairy and everything over an EL+3 is
potentially lethal. Complicating the argument here is that PCs at
level 2 do not have that much to do and fewer options. Again,
this dragon challenges a party of its own level and demolishes low
level PCs. This isn't because the level of encounter system fails,
it's because we're taking the very extreme of PC power (level 2) and
trying to figure out why something designed to take on higher level
PCs kills them. I mean, the answer is pretty obvious here.

Also in my IRL game, one of the encounters that have killed PCs has
been an EL+2 with standard monsters. You can do a LOT with standard
monsters. Don't underestimate them by any means. I haven't run any
solos and they will fight their first solo probably around level 5.

Sort of... what if you want the dragon to have backup, or
minions? The system has repeatedly said we should be having encounters
of level +1 to level +3 to challenge people, and that an even level
fight is a relatively easy fight that will eat up some
resources.

A standard encounter should be challenging, without being
overwhelming. It is not supposed to be "easy". An EL+1 is a slightly
harder standard encounter. An EL+2 is supposed to be difficult and
beyond that you're just ramping it up quite quickly.

Because monster level should indicate
level of challenge, otherwise what is the point of ranking monsters by
level? This was the problem with 3.x's CR system, it was worthless
because you couldn't conclude ANYTHING from CR, it was just a
meaningless number that maybe vaguely hinted at whether the opponent
was good for high or low level play.

This is in no way representative of what happens in 4E. I mean, we're
talking about very low level heroic PCs, in horribly optimized parties
that lack things without a leader being utterly mauled by this. Well
honestly, I could kill a leaderless party with a white or brown dragon
as well and they are only level 3! Personally though, I am rarely
using high level encounters now. MM3 powers, damage and similar means
that I think about EL, EL+1 and EL+2 encounters primarily now. When I
want to kill someone, I go up to EL +4 and thats an absolutely bananas
encounter.

I also use a LOT of encounters with standard monsters and standard
monsters from MM3/Demonomicon can pound PCs ferociously. People in
this thread have forgot that solos aren't the only thing that has
changed. Standard monsters have equally got a power upgrade to their
abilities. When comparing a post-MM3 solo, compare them with post-MM3
standard monsters. Observe what Jackalweres for example do to a low
level party. In fact that's a fantastic example: Take an EL+2
encounter worth of Jackalweres against that level 2 party. Do you
honestly think the level 2 party is going to come off better? I mean,
standard monsters have advantages that solos don't and disadvantages.
They have more actions overall, especially with the improved power
design and can gang up very effectively. It's also harder to impose
effects on every creature in the encounter than with a solo (for
obvious reasons).

Note that while Jackalweres are an aberration, there are lot of GOOD
low level heroic monsters like shadows that can seriously hurt a party
majorly. Make yourself an EL+2 encounter against that level 2 party
with a secret of vecna (MM3), a ghoul (MM3 version I prefer), 2
shadows (MM3) and some other minions to round it out and that will put
some serious hurt on the party.

So, if 5 standard monsters of level+3 should be a punishingly
difficult but doable encounter, then a single level+3 solo should be
as well.

To be perfectly honest, in my epic game at 30 my PCs would be happier
to see one EL+3 solo than one encounter of EL+3 standard demons.

 

[Mengu]

Anyway, it seems to me that the best advice for low-level melee types attacking a black dragon is: pack a reach weapon for when the dragon gets bloodied.

Actually in the few simulations I've done, that bloodied damage can take people from dying to dead if the dragon just parks next to their bodies, so reach doesn't really help that much. And the main difficulty is usually well before the dragon gets bloodied. It's round 1. The second simulation saw 3 people unconscious before they got a turn.

The thing that makes the biggest difference is resistance. If you have a permanent source of resistance like Form of Mountain's Thunder, it helps immensely because after that initial onslaught, the dragon just nickel and dimes you to death.

I am not convinced 2nd level PCs should be taking on an EL+2 solo.

Just for kicks, I put the same party (warden, runepriest, sorcerer, rogue, invoker) against 3 Great Apes and 2 Yeti Howlers from MM3 (these are using the new damage guidelines). That's five standard level 4 creatures. Threw a bunch of trees around to give the Apes the terrain advantage. The party got through that encounter just spending some healing surges, one person spending an action point, and one person using an item daily. No one went down, there was never any threat of anyone dieing. The warden ended the fight with single digit hit points. For the same level of encounter (level+2) and experience, I shouldn't be getting consistent TPK's on one side despite using every single daily resource and action point, and a mildly resource draining but safe encounter on the other side.

If we believe the XP budget to determine the difficulty of an encounter, there is something wrong with the dragon. If solo encounters aren't supposed to conform to the XP budget, then we need an update/errata/memo. I'd prefer if the encounter design system was uniform. This makes scaling for 6-man parties a bit easier. It's not unusual for me to use an equal level solo with a few equal level standard creatures to make it a level+2 encounter. I'd like to continue to be able to have this flexibility, trusting that 1 solo is as difficult as 5 standard creatures, 1 elite is as difficult as 2 standard creatures, and 4 minions are as difficult as 1 standard creature.

(Perhaps this perception is influenced a bit with my war gaming experience where I expect at least approximate power equality in same point value armies, regardless of whether you take 10 beefy guys, or 30 cannon fodder.)

 

[Aegeri]

Just for kicks, I put the same party (warden, runepriest, sorcerer, rogue, invoker) against 3 Great Apes and 2 Yeti Howlers from MM3 (these are using the new damage guidelines).

I put that party (albeit I do not know what you used precisely) against an Enigma of Vecna (pulled the level down from 6 to 4), a ghoul fleshseeker (MM3), 2 shadows (MM3) and a Dread Protector (MM3, protecting the Enigma of Vecna) and utterly mauled it with 3 dead and the last two barely alive. The remaining experience I had left over accounted for the concealment in the entire area of combat, so the various lurkers could use their stealth powers.

I notice that you put 3 skirmishers with 2 controllers against that party. Without soldiers and brutes, I am not surprised you got the result you did. My monster composition is Controller/Lurker/Lurker/Lurker/Soldier - but a wider array of powers and abilities. The enigma getting stuck in with a particularly high damage claw attack being a key difference - not to mention the Enigma prevented certain characters from being able to use encounter/daily/utility powers at the right times. The dread protector was able to keep heat off the shadows, who assassinated the runepriest (considering I did just this in my actual IRL game this week, it was like watching an instant replay!) and then got the invoker shortly after with Mr. Engimas help. The ghoul kept the Barbarian entertained and it was only when the enigma and ghoul were killed that it looked like the party could pull it back. The runepriest was dead and the warden had numerous dirt naps though.

In the end, I had the Barbarian with few HP left and the Warden (who was almost dead due to the Shadows). The Warden was dead for certain if he hadn't got a lucky crit to finish off the shadow! So yeah, if you take a poor composition of monsters an EL+2 encounter doesn't do much. I agree. Noting that I have three level 3 creatures in there, terrain that I've accounted for in the XP, a 2 level lower enigma of vecna (with damage reduced correspondingly) and a level 4 ghoul. With that composition, including their pretty solid stealth checks and some good rolls they easily mauled the party (leaving 3 dead). With a few rolls going against the PCs, that was a TPK just like the dragon.

 

[FireLance]

Actually in the few simulations I've done, that bloodied damage can take people from dying to dead if the dragon just parks next to their bodies, so reach doesn't really help that much. And the main difficulty is usually well before the dragon gets bloodied. It's round 1. The second simulation saw 3 people unconscious before they got a turn.

Oh, I agree that it definitely has very strong alpha strike capabilities. With shroud of gloom, anyone who gets hit by its breath weapon is looking at 2d8+18 acid damage. That's enough to potentially drop many low-level characters from full hit points to 0 with a single attack roll. What makes it worse is that the PCs are often bunched together at the start of an encounter, and the dragon's high initiative modifier means that it will likely act before most of the PCs, giving it a good chance to catch most of them with its breath weapon.

In fact, I think I would worry more about the combination of shroud of gloom and breath weapon than acid blood. All that is required to defeat the latter are a combination of reach weapons for the melee combatants and some co-ordination on the part of the PCs to ready or delay their attacks until nobody is adjacent to the dragon. Yes, that means that a PC who is prone may have to give up his attack for the round in order to stand up and shift away, but again, feature, not bug (at least to me).

If I find that the one-two punch of shroud of gloom and action point breath weapon to be too deadly in play, I may decide to institute the following house rule: the dragon can only use shroud of gloom when it starts its turn with its breath weapon unavailable for use.

This means that:

1. Its initial breath weapon attack will always be unenhanced by shroud of gloom, giving PCs time to spread out if they happen to be bunched together at the start of the encounter.

2. A one-two punch is always impossible on the dragon's turn, so the PCs should have some time to react and possibly neutralize the effect on some or all of them before the dragon can follow up with its breath weapon. However, if the dragon uses shroud of gloom and the next PC to act decides to attack and manages to bloody it while standing in a group with the rest of his party, it would be (perhaps literally) his own funeral.

3. In terms of pacing, it removes the temptation for the DM to go nova at the start of the fight and makes the fight feel more variable because this complication will be introduced sometime between the initial shock and the time that the dragon becomes bloodied.

Story-wise, I can probably spin some justification around the idea that shroud of gloom is formed from the exhalations produced by a black dragon while its breath weapon is recharging.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Ok, it does its lurker duties thoroughly. Maybe scout ahead? It is not that usual that you are passing by a dragon by chance... this is why maybe dragons are a little bit tougher as usually you are coming prepared.

 

[MrMyth]

If I find that the one-two punch of shroud of gloom and action point breath weapon to be too deadly in play, I may decide to institute the following house rule: the dragon can only use shroud of gloom when it starts its turn with its breath weapon unavailable for use.

...

Story-wise, I can probably spin some justification around the idea that shroud of gloom is formed from the exhalations produced by a black dragon while its breath weapon is recharging.

Argh, can't give XP...

But yeah, I think this pinpoints the biggest design problem with this guy - Shroud followed by Breath Weapon can wipe a party. Solve that, and most of my worries go away. And that sounds like a brilliant in-character reason for the change!

Acid Blood is just fine as it is, in my mind - it gives the PCs something to work around (either by using reach, pushing the dragon away from vulnerable PCs, etc), which is a feature, not a bug.