Redskins: an improper name... now what?

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Crothian said:
Because I have nothing I feel I need to prove to you. As I keep saying in the thread I'm not attached to it for or against.

Really? Does this look at all familiar?

Crothian said:
I hope they don't change it. America is getting way to PC over things like this.

Please explain to me how that statement implies that you have no opinion for or against.

If you want to backpedal, backpedal. But please don't pretend that you came into this looking for an open exchange of ideas.

Crothian said:
This isn't me acting persecuted.

Really? Does this look at all familiar?

Crothian said:
I'm not allowed to have opinions or mine don't count as much because I'm not in a certain group.

Please explain what you meant to imply in that statement, if what you meant to imply was not, "I am being persecuted because somebody doesn't think my opinions are valuable."

Crothian said:
I was trying to ask questions, present the way I see things and try to understand how things were for other people.

Really? Does this look at all familiar?

Crothian said:
I can only look at this from my own perspective.

Exchange of ideas implies the ability to look at things from somebody else's perspective. Your first post was, "I hope they don't change it. America is getting way too PC over things like this." That doesn't exactly scream, "I'm looking for an open exchange of ideas."

Walking into a potentially heated discussion over a matter of which you are ignorant and making a broad sweeping statement is not conducive to enlightened discussion. Owning your ignorance and asking questions is fine, but using ignorance as justification for your opinion is probably not going to win you any points.

There are certainly valid opposing viewpoints. There's room for debate about whether the fact that the Redskins name may have been given in honor of head coach William Dietz, who was part Sioux. There's room for debate about whether the fact that the logo is a normal-looking Indian and not an exaggerated stereotype is a mitigating factor. There's room for debate about whether a name that was not intended to be racist (if that is indeed the case here) can still be considered offensive when the term used to honor the race is used today in a disparaging manner (for example, a team called the Negroes might be considered offensive, even though the term Negro was not originally a racial slur). If you were making those points, that would be fine.

But your argument boils down to, "I haven't experienced this form of racism or witnessed it firsthand, so I don't think it's offensive... until enough people argue the point, at which point I'll declare that I never said I didn't think it was offensive."

That's an ignorant viewpoint. It doesn't make you a bad person to have it, but it does mean that you're ignorant in this particular area. Ignorance is not an insult. It is a simply a condition that should be corrected, or at least acknowledged.
 

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takyris said:
So... yes. I do know more than you do. Vig knows more than you do. Your attempt to act persecuted because your ignorant opinion doesn't carry equal weight is ridiculous.

To expand slightly on what Plane Sailing said - this sort of writing rather mirrors the stuff we see when something is political.

That you felt the need to start getting personal here is regrettable. I strongly suggest folks don't go any further along these lines in this thread.
 

takyris, so you don't think I'm ignoring your last post I am not replying to it and am following Umbran's suggestion. Thank you.
 

I'd say that it mirrors the political discussions because it very much is one, however much Vig tried to steer it away from that.

I apologize for getting heated, Crothian. This is something that is close enough to my family that I have a great deal of trouble remaining calm when certain things are brought up. From the viewpoint of somebody who hasn't seen that kind of racism in action, it's an interesting intellectual discussion. I can't see it from that angle, and I'm sorry that I made it personal.
 

takyris said:
I'd say that it mirrors the political discussions because it very much is one, however much Vig tried to steer it away from that.

I apologize for getting heated, Crothian. This is something that is close enough to my family that I have a great deal of trouble remaining calm when certain things are brought up. From the viewpoint of somebody who hasn't seen that kind of racism in action, it's an interesting intellectual discussion. I can't see it from that angle, and I'm sorry that I made it personal.

It's okay, I was a bit obtuse in some of my posts now that I reread them. It was good to read it from your point of view, it has made me think on it. Thanks for that.
 



A little digging into the history of the Redskins franchise name:

From the Pro Football Hall of Fame
"WASHINGTON REDSKINS - George Preston Marshall acquired an NFL franchise in 1932 and named it the Boston Braves after the city’s Major League Baseball team. However, after a financially devastating and poorly attended season in 1932, Marshall abandoned the Braves name in favor of the Redskins. The Redskins name was retained when the team was moved to Washington in 1937."
A little more digging into George Preston Marshall found this excerpt:
"So while the NFL gets on its high horse about racial tolerance, they are helping its most valuable billion dollar franchise to maintain a name that exemplifies the worst traditions of racial violence and bigotry in U.S. history. The Redskins name was the product of their arch-segregationist owner George Preston Marshall in his effort to make the Skins the team of the South. Even their fight song Hail to the Redskins used to end with instead of "fight for old DC" "Fight for old Dixie!""
However, wikipedia has this to say:
"The name "Redskins" was in honor of their head coach William (Lone Star) Dietz who was of part-Sioux decent. The team then moved to Washington, D.C. in 1937." And "When the football team moved to Fenway Park (home of the Boston Red Sox) the next year, Marshall also changed the name of the football Braves to the "Redskins", to honor their head coach and further distinguish the team from their ex-landlords. Then "It is sometimes claimed that the team was named the Boston Redskins in honor of the head coach, William "Lone Star" Dietz, an American Indian."
A deeply researched language blog post on the history of the term "redskins" and whether it was always offensive. This excerpt is rather to the issue:
"The term redskin of course goes much farther back than 1933. The details of this history have recently been explored by Ives Goddard of the Smithsonian Institution, in a paper (warning a .pdf file!) conveniently available on-line. Some of the evidence is available in greater detail on Goddard's web site. You can read speeches (warning another .pdf file!) by the Meskwaki chief Black Thunder and the Omaha chief Big Elk in which the expression redskin is used, and early nineteenth century examples of the Meskwaki usage of terms meaning redskin and whiteskin.
So, just a little Googling for ya all. I recommend folks follow each of the links and read the entire articles, and not just my excerpts.
 

trancejeremy said:
Heh, I wouldn't be surprised to see them sell off a new name.

The Washington UPS Delivery Guys

Maybe not like that blatant, but seriously, Dodge is a huge advertiser during Rams games, simply because of the name (Ram)

Kinda inconvenient when they play in FedEx field.

- jez, just another UPS employee
 


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