Redskins: an improper name... now what?

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Ranger REG said:
With frankthedm avatar as the team logo. Hmm. Where do I vote? :cool:

Wow. That wasn't cool. Or funny.

And to those throwing up the "intent" argument, that nonsense really doesn't hold water. As Vigilance pointed out, if the team name was one of the other more well-known racial slurs there wouldn't be a debate over this.

I'm also sorry to Vigilance for contributing to the de-railing of this thread but, as the husband of an aboriginal woman (and father of a half-aboriginal child), a lot of this has made me fairly angry.
 
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Eric Anondson said:
It actually does mean "woman", there was an activist who appeared on Oprah in 1992 who started the meme that squaw had a horrible meaning. Linguists have been fighting it ever since, but when Oprah puts on someone with an agenda... that agenda quickly becomes the default. A lot of "journalists" haven't bothered to investigate the matter to learn how the controversy started, and whether it was a fact, they just keep on repeating the error.

But that's just it. People are told something is offensive to someone in another culture, or are told they should be offended, and most people just go along and agree. The NCAA was told by a few activists that all use of Indian names is "hostile and abusive" to the all Indian cultures, and the NCAA administrators feel obliged to go right along.

What language does it mean woman in? Not meant to be confrontational but just curious myself, as my wife and her family seem to find that a fairly derogatory term.
 

I don't hear the word redskin being used today like the words you mentioned. So, I think it is different and an analogy using a racist term that has fallen out of use would be more fitting.

Well, you might hear it in use in middle America- Kansas, South Dakota, North Dakota, etc., though its not nearly as common, and your point is well taken.

I guarantee you there would be a BIG stink if the New Orleans Saints were renamed the New Orleans Papists or N.O. Mackerel Snappers (old, out of date slurs for Roman Catholics- another group to which I claim membership).
 




Vigilance said:
You're throwing up some nice strawmen, trying to make this about intent (which is impossible to prove).

Fact is, using equivalent words for other race groups would not fly in modern American society. If they wanted to call the team the Washington Blackies, the Washington N-word or the Washington K-word, I don't think anyone would go to the trouble to parse their intent before they decided it was inappropriate.

You are comparing apples and oranges, those are blatant racist words and it is not impossible to prove intent, just very difficult.

The article that Eric Anondson linked sums up what I feel the best.

Perfectly honorable and acceptable words may be used in a disrespectful way. As one man said "It’s the way you say it, it’s not the word." Just because it’s possible to use a word in a disrespectful way does not mean it should be stricken from our language.
 
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...those are blatant racist words and it is not impossible to prove intent, just very difficult.

"Redskin" is no less blatant than the other ones.

You might not perceive it as such because Native Americans are simply not as numerous and nationally dispersed into the melting pot as other minorities. You simply don't hear about people being called "redskin" as often as you hear about derogatory terms for their black, hispanic, Asian or Jewish heritage...

Unless you live in the plains states.

When I lived in Kansas, it was actually refreshing to realize that people didn't care about the fact that I was black. However, to hear some talk, the battles fought against the tribes of the area might as well have been last year (my buddy from SD said it was similar where he lived)....so I kept my Chocktaw heritage my personal secret.
 

Crothian said:
I don't hear the word redskin being used today like the words you mentioned. So, I think it is different and an analogy using a racist term that has fallen out of use would be more fitting.

Really?

I mean, where I live, I don't hear the N-word being dropped except by black people using it in conversations with each other. To me, the N-word has fallen out of use except as a term of casual friendly insult between African-American men. Perhaps I should lobby for that as the new name for the Redskins, then.

Dear White Guys: Let me say this in the nicest possible way, because I know it may come as a shock: It's not about you.

It doesn't matter whether the term offends you. It doesn't matter whether you think that the term is racist. If the meanest cultural insult you've ever had hurled your way is that you're a geeky gamer, you are not qualified to make judgments about the relative degrees of racism in a specific statement.

If the tribes are bringing up a case, it's because the tribes are unhappy about it, presumably because they are offended by it. Or possibly because they've become corrupt and greedy and want a payoff, but you know? I'm willing to let that get settled in court, and I'm willing to let the folks who were the victims of a largely successful attempt at genocide at least have their day in court, rather than sit at my keyboard and use my white male fingers to type about how I'm not offended by it, and therefore it shouldn't be changed.

(Note: Married to a nice Cheyenne woman.)

Vig, to answer your original question: Got me. I see two options:

1) Pick a non-racial name. It's easy enough. It's been done before. The bitter old white guys who think it's about heritage and tradition and not racial stereotypes will recover.

2) Pick an Indian term with the input of a tribal committee (one composed of members of several tribes, or several tribes from around the DC area, or whatever). My limited experience with tribal committees has been less than overwhelmingly positive, but if they got signoff from that committee, they'd have it on the books. They'd have done their due diligence, and whenever anyone brought it up, they could say, "Well, we cleared it with this committee, and they're genuine Indians who were appointed by the tribes to give us the okay."

For the record, my wife (and her Dad) are sort of torn. They hate the name, because in their minds it IS racist (and her father DOES use it the way African-Americans use the N-word, sort of), but if they're stuck with it, they figure that they might as well support the team just on cultural principle. "I wish they'd change it, but until they do, I might as well root for the team."

(They also are less irked by the Redskins than the Chiefs or the Braves or the Indians, if I remember this right, because the Redskins don't have as many insulting fake-Indian shtick-things going -- the tomahawk chop or whatever it is.)

Note: No argument that the "We want it changed, but we root for them" thing is dysfunctional. When your culture gets largely destroyed and the little bit that remains gets either insulted or romanticized, a bit of dysfunction is going to creep into the picture. My wife's family is going through some other stuff that really brings that home right now.
 

RedWick said:
If another person is offended by the sterotype you're portraying, it's racist (or sexist or classist or whateverist). Intent doesn't enter into it.

Only if the offense is justified, though.

I'm reminded of this article from the National Post:
Meanwhile, things are not peachy on the campus of SUNY/Albany. The university wanted to honour baseball legend Jackie Robinson by having a picnic. But the university's equity office said this must not occur because the word "picnic" referred originally to gatherings held to lynch Blacks. In fact, as one of their own English professors (rather less committed to historical revisionism than RMC's Dr. Robinson) pointed out, the word "picnic" actually comes from a 17th-century French word that denotes a party at which everyone brings food. But Zaheer Mustafa, the equity officer, nevertheless decreed that "picnic" not be used because "the point is — the word offends." So the university decided to call it an "outing." Then, homosexual students took objection to that, and SUNY decided to publicize the event without using any noun to describe it.

Just because people take offense, it doesn't automatically mean you're being offensive.

('Baa, Baa, Rainbow Sheep', anyone?)

-Hyp.
 

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