Reducing Level Adjustment through Feats

[maggot]

I think someone came up with a feat being roughly equal to 1/5th of a level. So by that determination, giving a whole level to someone with a feat is about five times too powerful.

Think of a Goliath or Half-Giant who spends a feat to get rid of the +1 LA.

 

[Volsung]

I think someone came up with a feat being roughly equal to 1/5th of a level. So by that determination, giving a whole level to someone with a feat is about five times too powerful.

I'm curious about how someone would even go about calculating that. If you can provide a link or some other reference it would be appreciated.

That said, I'm not entirely sure it is germane to what I'm trying to do here. I'm trading an XP penalty for a number of feats as the price for a racial special ability, I'm not allowing a character to actually level above their party for the cost of a few feats.

Think of a Goliath or Half-Giant who spends a feat to get rid of the +1 LA.

Fortunately that's not what I suggested, as it would be too low of a price. Using the feats in the OP a Goliath or Half-Giant character wouldn't eliminate level adjustment until they had reach 4th level, and it would cost them two feats. I wouldn't flinch at allowing that, particularly after having seen an Arcana Unearthed Giant in play (Fighter 1/Giant 3, gaining Large size at 4th level).

 

[Quartz]

I think these feats are vastly overpowered.

Compare Glass Jaw of Steel with Toughness. Suppose you're playing a LA+4 race with good Con. You instantly get a shedload of HP.

Reduce Level Adjustment is also too good: take this feat and instantly gain a level, possibly with cool abilities and maybe a feat too (e.g. even fighter level).

And Monstrous Spellcaster is like gaining a level of spellcaster for a feat. If you want it, I'd treat it more like Practiced Spellcaster.

I'm not sure how you could fix them.

 

[maggot]

Fortunately that's not what I suggested, as it would be too low of a price. Using the feats in the OP a Goliath or Half-Giant character wouldn't eliminate level adjustment until they had reach 4th level, and it would cost them two feats. I wouldn't flinch at allowing that, particularly after having seen an Arcana Unearthed Giant in play (Fighter 1/Giant 3, gaining Large size at 4th level).

Arcana Unearthed Giant levels have BAB +0 at first level, thus being a significant cost. Being large is also quite a cost as it is -1 to hit and -1 AC. A Goliath with your two feats could be 4th level with full BAB, still wield large weapons, and suffer no to hit or AC. And those extra figher levels would pay for the feats.

Basically, for a human to keep up, he'd need feats on the order of:
Gain +2 Str
Gain Powerful Build
Gain +2 Con

 

[Volsung]

I think these feats are vastly overpowered.

Compare Glass Jaw of Steel with Toughness. Suppose you're playing a LA+4 race with good Con. You instantly get a shedload of HP.

Actually, the potentially large quantity of added hit points is exactly the point of the feat. It still generally won't come close to catching a character up its LA+0 breatheren.

Reduce Level Adjustment is also too good: take this feat and instantly gain a level, possibly with cool abilities and maybe a feat too (e.g. even fighter level).

And Monstrous Spellcaster is like gaining a level of spellcaster for a feat. If you want it, I'd treat it more like Practiced Spellcaster.

I'm not sure how you could fix them.

Show me why you think the feats are overpowered by giving an example of how someone could abuse them creating a character.

Monstrous Spellcaster looked pretty spot-on in the builds I've created using bugbears, lizardfolk, and gnolls, as compared to their full spellcasting counterparts, but I haven't tried it on anything unusual yet and have been looking at mostly divine spellcaster classes (e.g. druid, cleric, shaman, etc.).

Fortunately that's not what I suggested, as it would be too low of a price. Using the feats in the OP a Goliath or Half-Giant character wouldn't eliminate level adjustment until they had reach 4th level, and it would cost them two feats. I wouldn't flinch at allowing that, particularly after having seen an Arcana Unearthed Giant in play (Fighter 1/Giant 3, gaining Large size at 4th level).

Arcana Unearthed Giant levels have BAB +0 at first level, thus being a significant cost. Being large is also quite a cost as it is -1 to hit and -1 AC. A Goliath with your two feats could be 4th level with full BAB, still wield large weapons, and suffer no to hit or AC. And those extra figher levels would pay for the feats.

Basically, for a human to keep up, he'd need feats on the order of:
Gain +2 Str
Gain Powerful Build
Gain +2 Con

Here’s how I’m seeing it:

I wanna build a 4th level, two-handed weapon killing machine. High strength is key to damage output, so I’m going to compare three races, the AU Giant, the Goliath, and the Orc. The first has racial hit dice, but no level adjustment, the second has level adjustment that I’ll mitigate with the feats in the OP, and the third has neither level adjustment on racial hit dice.

I will give each the standard distribution of ability score, with the bonus point at 4th going to strength. I will arrange them thusly, Str:16, Dex:13, Con:14, Int:10, Wis:12, Cha:8.

The UA Giant: Fighter 1/Giant 3; Avg. HP 38.5; AC 17 (-1 size, +8 full plate); Attack: Greatsword +8 melee, 2d8+7 damage, 10’ natural reach; Abilities: S 20, D 11, C 16, I 12, W 14, Ch 8; Saves: Fort +8, Ref +1, Will +3; Feats: Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Power Attack, Cleave.

The Goliath: Fighter 4; Avg. HP 38.5; AC 18 (+8 full plate); Attack: Greatsword +10 melee, 2d8+9 damage; Abilities: S 20, D 11, C 16, I 10, W 12, Ch 8; Saves: Fort +7, Ref +1, Will +1. Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Power Attack, Glass Jaw of Steel, Reduce Level Adjustment, Weapon Specialization (Greatsword).

The Orc: Fighter 4; Avg. HP 38.5; AC 19 (+1 Dex, +8 full plate); Attack: Greatsword +10 melee, 2d6+9 damage; Abilities: S 20, D 13, C 14, I 8, W 10, Ch 6; Saves: Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +1. Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Toughness, Weapon Specialization (Greatsword).

UA Giant vs. Goliath – The giant will do an average damage of 9.68/round to the goliath. The goliath in turn dishes out an average of 12.87/round to the giant.

Goliath vs. Orc – The goliath will do an average of 11.88/round to the orc. The orc does an average of 11.44/round to the goliath. The winner of initiative will likely will the fight in four rounds. The orc will have the better initiative 57.25% of the time.

UA Giant vs. Orc – The giant will do an average damage of 8.8/round to the orc. The orc does an average of 12.32/round to the giant. The orc will likely take down the giant in three rounds (the giant would need four to take down the orc)

UA Giant vs. three hobgoblins (war1 from SRD) – On average the giant will take out all three of them in two rounds. In addition his 10’ natural reach makes it difficult for them to approach. If they charge him they likely all go down in a single round. If they approach carefully, he’ll likely kill two of them before the third even gets to swing his sword. In the event that a hobgoblin gets a swing in it will average 1.815 points of damage (2.42 on a charge or flank).

Goliath vs. three hobgoblins – On average the goliath will take three rounds to get all three hobgoblins, and suffer an average of three or six attacks, depending on initiative. The goliath will have the higher initiative 47.25% of the time. A hobgoblins attack does an average of 1.5125 point of damage (2.1175 on a charge or flank).

Orc vs. three hobgoblins – On average it will take the orc two rounds to take down the hobgoblins, and suffer an average of one or four attacks, depending on initiative. The orc will have the higher initiative 50% of the time. A hobgoblins attack does an average of 1.21 point of damage (1.815 on a charge or flank).

Now the goliath could have taken Cleave instead of Weapon Specialization, but then his damage would drop to that of the orc, and his lower armor class and initiative would still have caused him to take more damage in the fight against the group of hobgoblins.

So, it looks like the orc has the edge in a stand up fight, but the giant’s reach rules the group combat, and the goliath finishes just behind the orc in both.

 

[irdeggman]

Did you factor in the damage difference for using larger weapons?

Giants and goliaths can use Large weapons without penalty for size.

I have a player running a goliath in my AoW game and he is using a Large goliath greathammer (3d6 and a 2 handed weapon).

 

[Nifft]

Actually, the potentially large quantity of added hit points is exactly the point of the feat. It still generally won't come close to catching a character up its LA+0 breatheren.

Let's see. Human Barbarian 20 vs. Human Half-Celestial Barbarian 16.

Regular Human: Con 14 = 40 hp, levels (12 + 19*6.5) = 135.5 hp, total = 175.5

Half-Celestial: Con 18 = 80 hp, levels (12 + 15*6.5) = 109.5, total = 189.5

That's before your feat, which would add at least 20 hp.

Cheers, -- N

 

[maggot]

So, it looks like the orc has the edge in a stand up fight, but the giant’s reach rules the group combat, and the goliath finishes just behind the orc in both.

Large-sized great swords deal 3d6 damage.
Orcs have light sensitivity and will often suffer -1 to hit.
Lower levels is when LA really hurts fighter types. Try the analysis at a higher level.

 

[Volsung]

Did you factor in the damage difference for using larger weapons?

Giants and goliaths can use Large weapons without penalty for size.

I have a player running a goliath in my AoW game and he is using a Large goliath greathammer (3d6 and a 2 handed weapon).

Good catch! I accidentally used the damage for a large bastard sword instead of a greatsword.

If I redo the numbers with the corrected damage the Goliath edges out the Orc. However I noticed if I gave the orc Monkey Grip (and a bigger sword) instead of Improved Toughness it swung back in his favor, and if the Goliath had Cleave instead of Weapon Specialization he's right back where he strated. Ultimately, the orc ends up being the most versatile (something I never expected to type).

Completely aside from this issue, I'm not planning on allowing Monkey Grip or any creature with Powerful Build in my game (I'm in the "go Large or go home" crowd). Still it makes for an interesting, if purely academic, exercise.

Actually, the potentially large quantity of added hit points is exactly the point of the feat. It still generally won't come close to catching a character up its LA+0 breatheren.

Let's see. Human Barbarian 20 vs. Human Half-Celestial Barbarian 16.

Regular Human: Con 14 = 40 hp, levels (12 + 19*6.5) = 135.5 hp, total = 175.5

Half-Celestial: Con 18 = 80 hp, levels (12 + 15*6.5) = 109.5, total = 189.5

That's before your feat, which would add at least 20 hp.

Cheers, -- N

Your calculations were a little off on the Half-Celestial (to be fair my misspelling of brethren is by far the more egregious error). It should have read:

Half-Celestial: Con 18 = 64 hp, levels (12 + 15*6.5) = 109.5, total = 173.5

.

Glass Jaw of Steel puts him about 18 points ahead, which isn't that terrible at 20th level.

Of course, this leads one to consider how this would look in a game with a generous point buy and a player bent on creating a damage soaking monster.

Column "A" is a dwarven barbarian with a starting Constitution score of 18, who always raises Constitution when the free ability point comes up.
Column "B" is a half-celestial dwarven barbarian, with an initial Constitution of 22, and like the above dwarf always raises Constitution.
Column "C" gives the dwarfinal the Glass Jaw of Steel Feat.
Column "D" gives the celestidwaf in "C" the Reduce Level Adjustment feat when it is first available at ECL 16.

ECL        A        B        C        D
1          17       --       --       --
2          28.5     --       --       --
3          40       --       --       --
4          51.5     --       --       --
5          63       19       51       --
6          74.5     32.5     64.5     --
7          86       46       78       --
8         105.5     59.5     91.5     --
9         118       73      105       --
10        130.5     86.5    118.5     --
11        143      100      132       --
12        155.5    121.5    157.5     --
13        168      136      172       --
14        180.5    150.5    186.5     --
15        193      165      201       --
16        221.5    179.5    215.5    221
17        235      194      230      235.5
18        248.5    208.5    244.5    250
19        262      223      259      283.5
20        275.5    253.5    293.5    299

So, this has be wondering if I should create something of a sunset, to that Glass Jaw of Steel starts loosing its potency when the level adjustment makes up less that half of the ECL instead of when the character starts taking Reduce Level Adjustment. Like so:

GASS JAW OF STEEL [GENERAL]
Characters with level adjustment become less vulnerable.
Benefit: Your maximum hit points increase by 1 + Con modifier per point of level adjustment, with a minimum of one point per point of level adjustment. For each hit die you have greater than your total level adjustment your level adjustment is considered one point less for the purpose of calculating the additional hit points provided by this feat.

Here's the table above with the change to the feat.

ECL	A	B	C	D
1	17	--	--	--
2	28.5	--	--	--
3	40	--	--	--
4	51.5	--	--	--
5	63	19	51	--
6	74.5	32.5	64.5	--
7	86	46	78	--
8	105.5	59.5	91.5	--
9	118	73	97	--
10	130.5	86.5	102.5	--
11	143	100	108	--
12	155.5	121.5	121.5	--
13	168	136	136	--
14	180.5	150.5	150.5	--
15	193	165	165	--
16	221.5	179.5	179.5	194
17	235	194	194	208.5
18	248.5	208.5	208.5	223
19	262	223	223	253.5
20	275.5	253.5	253.5	269

That looks better. Now the half-celestial dwarven barbarian can still fulfill his role as tank in a 5th level party (well, at least he's trying), yet his hit point total never exceeds his full-blooded counterpart, which is what I had initially intended).

So, it looks like the orc has the edge in a stand up fight, but the giant’s reach rules the group combat, and the goliath finishes just behind the orc in both.

Large-sized great swords deal 3d6 damage.
Orcs have light sensitivity and will often suffer -1 to hit.
Lower levels is when LA really hurts fighter types. Try the analysis at a higher level.

The damage error is addressed above.
Orcs also have Darkvision, which gives a distinct advantage is he's fighting either of the big guys in the dark. Besides, characters seem to spend more time fighting indoors, underground, at night, at dawn, at dusk, in the rain and under overcast skies, than on sunny days.
Trying to analyze this at higher levels is the main problem. Threats tend to be a bit more varied, and character abilities can shift dramatically with the introduction of prestige classes. In some cases the loss of feats can delay entry to PrCs, or make it more dificult to take advantage of a PrCs features.

EDIT: fixed the tables

 

[Volsung]

How does one get a table to show up correctly in a thread?