Redundant Rogue Talents? And Major Magic.

[Friend of the Dork]

The Ranger has better stealth abilities, better combat abilities, better spellcasting and a pet.
The only thing the rogue has is trapfinding and even that is available to the ranger (though getting it hurts is stealth potentials). And the difference in the combat abilities is extreme, by 20th level an enemy that the rogue needs a 20 to hit the ranger can hit on a 2 (Instant Enemy + Greater Quarry).

No one is arguing that the rogue is better. Although.. these abilities you mention is not listed in the Ranger class, not sure where you found them. But Improved quarry (19th level) and high BAB (20th level) will make the Ranger more accurate, no doubt about it. And that's assuming it is not his favored enemy.

 

[Jadeite]

No one is arguing that the rogue is better. Although.. these abilities you mention is not listed in the Ranger class, not sure where you found them. But Improved quarry (19th level) and high BAB (20th level) will make the Ranger more accurate, no doubt about it. And that's assuming it is not his favored enemy.

Ah, I was referring to Improved Quarry. Instant Enemy is a 3rd level ranger spell that lets the ranger treat a creature as one of his favored enemies.

The Pathfinder ranger wasn't that bad to begin with and still got much greater boosts in the APG than the rogue.
What's the point of the rogue if the ranger is that much better a what the rogue is supposed to do?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Sound's like camouflage to me. I never said it was the same ability.. note I say it is "not as good as the ranger one."

Good or not good is irrelevant. One is a skill bonus. The other lets you use the skill when you normally could not. Apples to oranges. The only thing the two have in common is the naming and the skill they relate to. You said the rogue gets a weaker version of ranger's camo. What they get is nothing at all like ranger's camo. Do you understand the difference?

And why is it inevitable that the rogue fails a save against a stated burst effect?

Because area effects aren't always reflex saves? Because they're fairly common, so even when it's Reflex, there's a good chance of failing eventually?

The fact that you can get a bonus that can last all day is pretty damn decent if you ask me.

Feats

It's +1 better but only in one type of terrain and with a chance of being lost. Until level 10, when it's just plain worse. Kind of reminds me of 3.5's Combat Casting feat and how it was a trap because for only 1 lower bonus, the (far from powerful itself) Skill Focus feat applied all the time without condition.

The Ranger's Favored Terrain is hands down better. (Urban wtf??) But the point is that the Rogue does get some abilities to help improve their stealth, and can get good enough to sneak past most adversaries.

Maybe, I don't know. My experience has been that ever since Perception was turned into a GOD skill, by taking two already very good skills and one pretty good skill and bundling them all together, every single character has ranks in it, and half of the party is very good at it. The fun thing about skills like Hide is that all it takes is one failure to make the entire exercise a failure. Maybe Rogue gets enough to sneak past enemies, I'd hope so. But I wouldn't want to try it without the party within 1 round's run action away.

 

[Friend of the Dork]

Good or not good is irrelevant. One is a skill bonus. The other lets you use the skill when you normally could not. Apples to oranges. The only thing the two have in common is the naming and the skill they relate to. You said the rogue gets a weaker version of ranger's camo. What they get is nothing at all like ranger's camo. Do you understand the difference?



Because area effects aren't always reflex saves? Because they're fairly common, so even when it's Reflex, there's a good chance of failing eventually?



Feats

It's +1 better but only in one type of terrain and with a chance of being lost. Until level 10, when it's just plain worse. Kind of reminds me of 3.5's Combat Casting feat and how it was a trap because for only 1 lower bonus, the (far from powerful itself) Skill Focus feat applied all the time without condition.



Maybe, I don't know. My experience has been that ever since Perception was turned into a GOD skill, by taking two already very good skills and one pretty good skill and bundling them all together, every single character has ranks in it, and half of the party is very good at it. The fun thing about skills like Hide is that all it takes is one failure to make the entire exercise a failure. Maybe Rogue gets enough to sneak past enemies, I'd hope so. But I wouldn't want to try it without the party within 1 round's run action away.

Now you're splitting hairs. My point was that the Rogue has something that improves it's Stealth, the aptly named talent called Camouflage. The ranger one's is basically Hide in Plain Sight that only works in a specific terrain.

Does your Rogue really fail a save against one of the stated elemental forces every day? In the games I've played in these have been rare, and the Rogue is usually the one that manages to avoid it completely.

Skill focus isn't bad but it's a feat.. which it has been pointed out repeatedly that Rogues have fairly few of. CC is another matter as both are feats and thus expected to be balanced.

 

[Kaisoku]

I think some of you might want to qualify what your stating.

"Bad at Stealth" implies "bad at stealth in general". Which is absolutely false for the Rogue. He can get a very high check for Stealth, and perform stealth actions with less penalties/faster.

"Bad at entering stealth in combat" is probably what you meant, which is by no means the "only" yardstick for measuring Stealth effectiveness.

Rangers are great in their chosen terrain. Which is pretty limited until you get to much higher levels (typically 1 to 2 for most APs, maybe a third right at the end). If you actually look at it, they don't even get Hide in Plain Sight until after most APs finish (17th vs ~15 for most APs). Even Camouflage is nearing the tail end of most APs at 12th level.
And when they aren't in their terrain, they are pretty much as good as anyone who might have it as a class skill, that's it. And there isn't a spell to alleviate this like there is for Favored Enemy.
Also, the Ranger can (and probably will) wear Medium armor, since unless he's specifically ranged focus, he's going to need the armor for up close encounters. Likely a higher check penalty in the earlier levels.

Rogues have a multitude of bonuses to stealth between archetypes and talents, and they can get them early on in the game (like 1st-3rd levels).
And if you really, really, REALLY need that "in combat" effectiveness, getting one level of Shadowdancer (a primarily rogue prestige class) gives you a more universal version of Hide in Plain sight, long before the Ranger ever gets it (say, 7th level instead of 17th).

To say that the Rogue "isn't good at stealth" is narrow minded and misleading.

 

[Glade Riven]

Rereading a few rules lead to a rather interesting discovery...Rogues can sneak attack with spell trigger items (wands, staves, etc). So flank your foes and whip out the wand of scorching ray to watch them burn. Sure, there's a UMD you can't take 10 on (although, at high enough levels + Magical Aptitude can make it so that rolling a 1 still works), but it's a range touch attack. Whether or not a level dip into a wiz or sorcerer is worth using wands without a UMD is a personal choice.

Mmmm...I love the smell of napalm in the morning...

As far as being out-stealthed, there's magical help for that (either from an allied caster or a UMD check) at higher levels.

 

[Volaran]

That is true, regarding spell-trigger items and sneak attack. Our party rogue in EN Publishing's War of the Burning Sky regularly kept a CL5 wand of Shocking Grasp (I think later supplemented by an inflict wand of some sort, and a wand of scorching ray) as alternatives to use when he could not perform a full attack action, or when DR would prevent him from doing meaningful damage.

 

[Jadeite]

A wand of scorching ray would cost 90 gp per shot. Also, even a commoner would be good at stealth if buffed by others. Certainly, a rogue would be better, but than, a buffed ranger would be better than the rogue.

Concerning the shadow dancer, to become better at stealth the rogue has to stop being a rogue. Yes, that certainly will show how awesome the class is at stealth.

If you want a good stealth class that isn't a ranger, take a look at the ninja. Might as well be renamed rogue done right.

 

[Volaran]

If a wand of scorching ray is too expensive for you, unless you happen to find one in the field, (and certainly at low levels, that makes sense) a wand of ray of frost or acid orb clocks in at a much more reasonable 375gp (or 7.5 gp per shot).

Granted, neither spell deals as much damage on their own as scorching ray, but both are still energy damage, and allow you to add your full sneak attack. Acid orb even bypasses spell resistance, so remains useful against just about anything that isn't immune to acid.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

If you want a good stealth class that isn't a ranger, take a look at the ninja. Might as well be renamed rogue done right.

PF has a Ninja class now? And it's plainly better than Rogue? That would be a complete 180 from how things went down in 3.5!