Ref saves while blinded and stunned

[moritheil]

Hey, rogues can take no damage from being inside a fireball...lots of the game really doesn't make sense when analyzed

Yeah, I always read this as implying that every last area that a fireball is fired in is assumed to have some sort of cover (uneven ground, rocks jutting out, tree trunks, etc) where the rogue can take cover . . . often that isn't the case, but it looks like they've given up on giving a plausible explanation.

 

[moritheil]

Thanks for the answers, everyone. The combat was concluded, and thanks in large part to a successful grapple by one of the two people who was not taken out by the color spray, nobody had to die. (Color spray took out 7 PCs for the full 4+1 rounds . . . that's a lot of players who were sitting around going, "Yeah, I'm gonna go get a coke or something while I wait.")

 

[Egres]

Your DEX is 0 if you are helpless. A stunned character is not helpless.

A DEX bonus is not the same as a DEX score. If you have a 0 dexterity score, your dex bonus is -5.

Minor nitpick:not your Dex bonus, but your Dex modifier, or penalty.

 

[dungeon blaster]

Your DEX is 0 if you are helpless. A stunned character is not helpless.

A DEX bonus is not the same as a DEX score. If you have a 0 dexterity score, your dex bonus is -5.

Saves are just too important to the game, and stunned is just a too common condition for it to affect your Reflex saves. It's a balance issue.

I was referring to dex modifier, not dex score, so there's no need to correct me. So, being stunned does affect your reflex save if you have a positive dex mod. And forget about it being a balance issue, what's more important is that it's a common-sense issue.

Moritheil, personally I would rule that if there's absolutely no cover or extra space to dodge a fireball, the best you can get is quarter-damage. Thus, improved evasion would give quarter damage on a successful save, half on a failed save.

 

[Staffan]

I was referring to dex modifier, not dex score, so there's no need to correct me. So, being stunned does affect your reflex save if you have a positive dex mod.

Nope. From the SRD: "A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)."

Note the bit in boldface: you only lose the Dex bonus to AC. Not to Reflex saves, or any of the other things affected by Dex (though stunned people tend not to roll many skill checks or make many ranged attacks).

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Yeah, I always read this as implying that every last area that a fireball is fired in is assumed to have some sort of cover (uneven ground, rocks jutting out, tree trunks, etc) where the rogue can take cover . . . often that isn't the case, but it looks like they've given up on giving a plausible explanation.

Assuming cover is not necessary.

I assume that a Fireball does not actually fill the entire volume, but fat licks of flames swirl through. All creatures that are not killed or knocked out are presumed to have sidestepped the brunt of it. If they are too tired or too green they mistep and get hammered. All inanimate objects are presumed to get hit because they cannot move out of the way. Magical objects can protect themselves to some small degree.

Making the save really means different things for different characters. We just use one simple mechanic for the sake of simplicity. It just so happens that low level Rogues are nearly as good at surviving Fireballs as high level Barbarians.

 

[dungeon blaster]

Nope. From the SRD: "A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)."

Note the bit in boldface: you only lose the Dex bonus to AC. Not to Reflex saves, or any of the other things affected by Dex (though stunned people tend not to roll many skill checks or make many ranged attacks).

I know, but I don't agree with the SRD. Officially speaking, you are indeed correct.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I know, but I don't agree with the SRD.

It's in the Player's Handbook as well

-Hyp.

 

[Sammael]

During my last session, there was a question of whether a swimming creature is allowed a Reflex save. I checked the DMG section on underwater combat (which sucks, can't wait for Maelstrom/Stormwrack), and I couldn't find anything.

The swimming creature in question was the party's cleric, who was hanging on to a rope thrown to him from the ship. The Reflex save was being made against a mist dragon's breath weapon (a cone of scalding vapor).

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I don't believe the DM can ever take personal judgment out of the equation, no matter how thorough the rules might be.

While I agree with this sentiment, this isn't one of those cases where I believe a House Rule is necessary. Saving Throws aren't merely manifestations of their linked ability scores. They also represent the dumb luck of a hero. Succeeding at a saving throw doesn't necessarily mean you were quick enough to avoid the fireball, hearty enough to withstand the poison, or strong-willed enough to resist the dominate.

The sleeping mage has chosen to place his bedroll right next to a steep, two-foot incline. In the middle of the night a foe sneaks into the camp and casts a Fireball at him, but just as the Fireball hits, the mage happens to roll over and roll down the incline, which shields him from the flames...

==================

The fighter is doing battle with a rogue bearing a poisoned blade. The rogue scores a hit, anticipating the poison to quickly incapacitate the fighter, but nothing happens.

"You should be poisoned!" the rogue exclaims.

The fighter shrugs, "I don't know, maybe it had something to do with that moldy hamburger I had for lunch. It did taste kinda funny...."

==================

The vampire grins at the cleric. "Now you shall become my pawn." He captures the cleric's gaze and begins to overwhelm his will, but even as he does so the cleric notices the birthmark on the vampire's forehead, which looks remarkably like the Celestial rune for "rear-end." Even as the magic of the vampire's attack nears completion, the cleric starts to laugh uncontrollably. What are the odds that he'd encounter a vampire with the rune for "butt" written large on his forehead! Amusement floods his thoughts, and the vampire's grin turns to a grimace of astonishment as his magic is dissipated.

"But how--?" growls the vampire.

"But...?" The cleric's laughter only increases.

Saving Throws represent luck, karma, even random chance. These things aren't often denied, even when their linked attributes are. And that's exactly how I'd have it work.