Ref saves while blinded and stunned

[Hypersmurf]

Saving Throws aren't merely manifestations of their linked ability scores. They also represent the dumb luck of a hero.

Saving Throws represent luck, karma, even random chance. These things aren't often denied, even when their linked attributes are. And that's exactly how I'd have it work.

Don't forget, though, you explicitly require room to move to be able to make a Reflex save, according to the DMG.

-Hyp.

 

[Stalker0]

Don't forget, though, you explicitly require room to move to be able to make a Reflex save, according to the DMG.

-Hyp.

Is it a reflex save or use of evasion?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Is it a reflex save or use of evasion?

Both.

From the SRD:
As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade.

-Hyp.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Don't forget, though, you explicitly require room to move to be able to make a Reflex save, according to the DMG.

Sure. Even my example had to be able to roll down a hill to get his save.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Sure. Even my example had to be able to roll down a hill to get his save.

But can he, when he's asleep?

From the DMG:
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier).

And:
Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all.

If you're asleep, you're helpless.
If you're helpless, you're treated as having a Dex of 0.
Dex of 0 means you cannot move at all.

-Hyp.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

But can he, when he's asleep?

Intentionally, no. But I don't interpret the rules you've quoted to mean it's impossible. That'd mean you couldn't Bull Rush a sleeping creature either.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Intentionally, no. But I don't interpret the rules you've quoted to mean it's impossible. That'd mean you couldn't Bull Rush a sleeping creature either.

The character can't move; he could be moved.

-Hyp.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

The character can't move; he could be moved.

I can see the line you're drawing Hyp, but I guess I just don't draw it that way. Or perhaps I just interpret move vs. be moved differently. In my example, for instance, the sleeping character is being moved by circumstance. He's not making an intentional move such as he would were he awake. It's dumb luck that he happens to roll over at just the right time. Or would you say instead that, being asleep, he can't roll over?

Anyhoo, my point was that a significant portion of Saving Throws is dumb hero's luck, and there's no reason to disallow that to a PC even if they've lost all their Wis or Dex. The penalty to the Saving Throw created by the lowered stat is penalty enough.