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Refactoring DOAM

This is to followup thoughts from a prior thread (cf: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...Because-otherwise-Armour-Class-makes-no-sense).

The thought is to consider the difference between:

Case 1:

DOAM value of X
DOAH value of Y

Case2:

Continuous damage of X
DOAH of Y - X

These are equivalent results, numerically.

The question is, what is the interpretive difference between the two cases? Is there an advantage of one case over the other? Does either case lend itself to a clearer interpretation?

Thx!

TomB
 

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These are equivalent results, numerically.

The question is, what is the interpretive difference between the two cases?
What is the source of the continuous damage?

Here is an alternative equivalence: DoaM is numerically equivalent to "If you declare a valid melee attack, you do STR damage to your target. If your attack roll is a success, add W damage to that."

In my view that would be just a different way of expressing the current DoaM rules. It would not be conveying a different ingame state-of-affairs.
 

Case 1 requires less calculations. You only do math if you hit. That is why many TTRPGs use it and why it I now traditional.

But if you notice, many video game rpgs use Case 2 because a computer can do the math.
 

What is the source of the continuous damage?

Here is an alternative equivalence: DoaM is numerically equivalent to "If you declare a valid melee attack, you do STR damage to your target. If your attack roll is a success, add W damage to that."

In my view that would be just a different way of expressing the current DoaM rules. It would not be conveying a different ingame state-of-affairs.

The alternate is a restatement of the second case, with more concrete details.

The source of the continuous damage is an attack made by a player who had the DOAM ability (let's say, the source is an Implacable attack).

Thx!

TomB
 

The question is, what is the interpretive difference between the two cases? Is there an advantage of one case over the other? Does either case lend itself to a clearer interpretation?

Clearer interpretation: case 1.

A major difference: case 2 uses a different Y than case 1. But that's assuming you're using some wacky system that makes it practical to attack non-stop.

A different system might require you to expend effort defending, as well as attacking.

As an aside (to an aside), I suspect math isn't the issue for most people. The simulationists want to imagine blood, the (video) gamists want to shrug off damage. Why can't they imagine whatever they want?

In case I haven't derailed the thread already, isn't DoaM just a way to oppress the wizard-characters? Let's get some wizard-love, people!
 

Clearer interpretation: case 1.

A major difference: case 2 uses a different Y than case 1. But that's assuming you're using some wacky system that makes it practical to attack non-stop.

A different system might require you to expend effort defending, as well as attacking.

As an aside (to an aside), I suspect math isn't the issue for most people. The simulationists want to imagine blood, the (video) gamists want to shrug off damage. Why can't they imagine whatever they want?

In case I haven't derailed the thread already, isn't DoaM just a way to oppress the wizard-characters? Let's get some wizard-love, people!

Interesting. I myself find the second case clearer, with an interpretation of "the attack is so tenacious and threatening that a major effort is required to avoid a serious blow." Then, the major effort required means that damage is applied even on a miss.

That is, I'm thinking of the the DOAM amount as representing a baseline / minimal effort required when engaged by the attacker, and the DOAH amount represents extra damage when the attacker was able to push past defenses and (depending on the interpretation of a hit) score a blow / cause extra effort / use up some of the defender's luck.

I do see that having just one damage amount applied (either the DOAM X or the DOAH Y amount) is much simpler than having either one or two damage amounts (either the DOAM X amount or both the DOAM X amount and the DOAH Y - X amount), and is simpler because a DOAH Y - X amount will be constrained to what is easy to calculate.

But, even though I prefer the case 2 interpretation, I get into a tangle with it, because, if fighters can have Implacable attacks, I wonder whether there should be other attackers that have this ability. But, if only fighters can get the ability, this seems to be truly an exception case, and I find these to be distasteful when they don't have a good reasoning behind their existence.

Looking at several existing 3E continuous damage cases: Being on fire; standing next to a wall of fire, the reasoning is different than for DOAM. Also, the actual existing case of DOAM, that is, an attack with a grenade-like weapon, which applies splash damage on a near miss, has a different reasoning. DOAM seems to be truly a new case.

Comparing this with sneak attack dice and with critical hits (both using 3E as a background), I don't find that I have the same problem with these mechanics. You could replace sneak attack dice with an increased critical hit chance, but that doesn't seem to work mechanically as well as sneak attack. The conditions for when to apply sneak attack dice fit the flavor very well. Perhaps critical hits should have been based on the amount the attack exceeds AC, but that moves the excitement from the player to the DM, and adds fiddly details which would slow down combat. Critical hits do have scaling problems -- caused, I think, by poorly thought out feats -- but still, critical hits work pretty well.

Thx!

TomB
 
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I myself find the second case clearer, with an interpretation of "the attack is so tenacious and threatening that a major effort is required to avoid a serious blow." Then, the major effort required means that damage is applied even on a miss.

That is, I'm thinking of the the DOAM amount as representing a baseline / minimal effort required when engaged by the attacker, and the DOAH amount represents extra damage when the attacker was able to push past defenses and (depending on the interpretation of a hit) score a blow / cause extra effort / use up some of the defender's luck.
I don't see any difference between the two cases, to be honest. I think the current wording of DoaM is easier, simply because it relates it clearly to the baseline combat mechanics: on a successful attack roll do your normal damage (ie W + STR); if you miss your target number (ie your attack roll is unsuccessful) then do STR only.

But the wording, for me at least, is very much a second-tier issue.

But, even though I prefer the case 2 interpretation, I get into a tangle with it, because, if fighters can have Implacable attacks, I wonder whether there should be other attackers that have this ability. But, if only fighters can get the ability, this seems to be truly an exception case, and I find these to be distasteful when they don't have a good reasoning behind their existence.

<snip>

Comparing this with sneak attack dice
I don't see how it's any different from sneak attack. Only rogues get to be sneaky/precise. Only GW fighters, paladins and rangers get to be implacable. Only clerics get to have the gods actually answer their prayers.
 

I don't see any difference between the two cases, to be honest. I think the current wording of DoaM is easier, simply because it relates it clearly to the baseline combat mechanics: on a successful attack roll do your normal damage (ie W + STR); if you miss your target number (ie your attack roll is unsuccessful) then do STR only.

But the wording, for me at least, is very much a second-tier issue.

I don't see how it's any different from sneak attack. Only rogues get to be sneaky/precise. Only GW fighters, paladins and rangers get to be implacable. Only clerics get to have the gods actually answer their prayers.

With damage amounts of (STR only an unsuccessful attack) vs (STR + W on a successful attack), the difference between the two descriptions is minimized, since the two amounts are very easily converted to (STR always) (+W on a successful attack). That is, the damage amounts have, as a built in and very natural feature, the equivalence of the views.

Hard to relate damage amounts, say (3 points on an unsuccessful attack) and (STR + W on a successful attack) don't provide the same natural equivalence.

That the preferred damage amounts provide a natural equivalence tells me that the second view is important.

Having all of Fighters, Paladins, and Rangers gain Implacable Attack is quite a bit different than giving the ability only to Fighters. Or, say, only to Dwarven Fighters. (But what about Barbarians? They seem to be the poster child of Implacable Attack.) If the primary martial classes all have the ability (or eventually get the ability, or can eventually get the ability as a class option), that removes the special case problem for me.

Thx!

TomB
 

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