"Refire the Forge" (L16 Moradun Avenger Utility)

[Istar]

This is a Daily that gives you HP back every time you hit an enemy equal to your Dex mod.

Its Avenger, and since Dex is not a prime Stat the developers probably thought at worst the Avenger is going to only get a few HP back.

But have they made a massive mistake here.
Not considering that a class with Dex as a prime stat might M/C Avenger and take this feat.

Because it allmost grants invincibility once per day for a whole Encounter, to a Rogue, especially a Crit Farmer Rogue specialising in multi attacks to increase chance of getting a crit.

With Blast attacks area 5, minor action attacks, Riposte Strike, two fisted shooter, a Rogue can get massive HP back.

With a Dex mod around 8 my Rogue spamming Blast 5 attacks could get 70 HP back in one turn reasonably easy.

The question I am asking is, should I take this, as it seems broken ??

 

[Aulirophile]

It is actually Int or Dex, and all Avenger builds should bump one of those stats for AC, not to mention two builds specifically depend on them (Pursuit and Retribution). In fact, because OoE is so good, it isn't all that uncommon to have 16 wis but 18 Dex or Int at level 1, since several races without a wis bonus make very good Avengers.

Seems about right for a daily utility at mid-Paragon. And you're assuming it helps. "Oh hey, when that guys hits us he heals... we should ignore him and beat on someone else." The standard adventuring day is supposed to be a minimum of four encounters, at Paragon you should be pushing 8+ before your DM lets you rest. Being invincible for one encounter is kind of eh. I prefer encounter utilities for exactly this reason.

 

[Bold or Stupid]

I don't see the problem with it personallyI suspect you'll not average more than 10 hp back a round from this and even at peak return concerted monster effort would quickly cancel it out and leave you on the floor. Plus it'll cost a Rogue 2 feats and the loss of a rogue 16 utility to get this so has plenty of oppurtunity cost to my mind.

 

[Istar]

Great, with Epic Trick at level 26 I get it twice which is good.

With spamming blast 5 attacks thru Cloud of Steel, Steel Entrapment (3 times per encounter), and targeting say 4 enemy, thats 28 HP per blast, throw in other attacks, I pretty good.

Only 1 feat as I am going M/C Avenger anyway.

Any more comments from people on taking 2 feats that give me 2 Avenger Utilities.

What do you guys think of that ?

 

[Aulirophile]

Great, with Epic Trick at level 26 I get it twice which is good.

With spamming blast 5 attacks thru Cloud of Steel, Steel Entrapment (3 times per encounter), and targeting say 4 enemy, thats 28 HP per blast, throw in other attacks, I pretty good.

Only 1 feat as I am going M/C Avenger anyway.

Any more comments from people on taking 2 feats that give me 2 Avenger Utilities.

What do you guys think of that ?

...Seems pretty normal? That is basically the purpose of those MC feats. You get one round/encounter benefit of a class, or one encounter/day, or a mini-class feature. And then with a little feat investment you can swap some powers.

Sort of the point.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Any more comments from people on taking 2 feats that give me 2 Avenger Utilities.

What do you guys think of that ?

I think, that I don't know what you are talking about.

You were talking about one feat (MC utility swap) that lets you exchange one utility power (refire the forge), what else are you talking about?

 

[Aulirophile]

I'm pretty sure he is referring to the fact that MC Avenger gives him one round of OoE, and then the MC utility swap gives him a power.

 

[DracoSuave]

Rogues and Rangers have, at most, one point more in Dexterity than an Avenger.

Thing is, when it comes to 'hit more often' Avengers are very much competitive with Rangers and Rogues, what with being the most accurate class in the game. Sure, you can take an ability that allows you to take on a single monster and Oath, but Avengers have access to that constantly, all the time, unending.

That said...

How many rogues or rangers of Moradin do you really see? Honestly? Worshiping Moradin is part of it... and rogues and rangers aren't exactly the most pious towards the gods of crafting and making stuff in that dwarven sort of way.

All told, it's a daily utility power that requires a specific investment of character goal and purpose, and 'But you can multiclass into it!' doesn't make it broken. If (at absolute most) 9 extra hitpoints a round make you invulnerable, maybe you should start considering not tossing out heroic level monsters at level 16+.

Just sayin.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

I'm pretty sure he is referring to the fact that MC Avenger gives him one round of OoE, and then the MC utility swap gives him a power.

Hm. probably...

Ok back to your (Istar) original question:
No, I'm not impressed at all by what you gain from those two feats.
1) OoE applies to melee attacks - the powers you seem to favor are close and area attacks >> OoE does not work.
2) Rogues are not the best single target multi-attackers - less gain from OoE again
3) 1 encounter/day some extra healing is nice but not that impressive; this depends of course on #encounters/day and party composition
4) Moradin flavor: it's fluff you either like and that is fitting for your char or it's kinda "weird"

 

[Istar]

Okay.
1. The feat that lets you swap a Rogue Utility for an Avenger utility, can I pick it twice so I can have 2 Avenger Utilites.

2. Its only 1 feat as I am M/C into avenger anyway for Nova 2 rounds of standard and minor action attacks, dailys and combo's.
Plus to get a symbol slot "Victory Sumbol" to get an extra AP per day (2 symobls actually), and I have some powers activating off an AP like slaying action and Martial something or other.

3. When you read the Moradin Avenger flavour you see it fits well, as the Rogue is an outcast and has vengeance issues already.

4. Being a Crit Farmer of sorts, the Avenger "Kord" feat that push's enemeis on a crit (7 - 8 squares) is also very useful combined with Overwhelming Critial.
As we have determined Avengers can have multiple gods as per Divine Power.

5. Steel Entrapment, combines with Whirlwind Sneak Attack and slaying action, and Martial Mastery with extra AP's is huge AOE damage, which I can create 3 times per Encounter, combine this with Moradin Utility.

Think thats about it.