Reflex saves when Stunned?!?

[Ruvion]

To answer the original question posed by Anders, there is nothing in the rules that says stunned character do not get a Reflex save...so I guess they do. IMC, however, I would rule that stunned characters lose Dexterity bonus on their Reflex save (just as they lose Dexterity bonus on their AC)...Very appropos and it keeps with the spirit of being stunned I think.

 

[Trellian]

D00d, it's magic. You'd allow Fort and Will saves for a held character, why not Ref saves?

You can't compare Ref to Fort and Will.. when your paralyzed, your body cannot move. it can still fight off alien influences, either in your head (as in domination) or body (as a poison).

I would rule that you would have a Dex of 0 (lots of penalty there), but could use the bonuses from a Cloak of Resistance (not feats or level. So in theory, you could manage to make a save, but it would be tough!

 

[RigaMortus]

Don't think of it as a paralyzed creature dodging a fireball. Think of it interms of the flame from the fireball happens not to hit the area the paralyzed PC is standing in. Fire and flames are unpredictable, so the flares of a fireball may not necessarily fill up every inch of that 20' radius. This is just one way to interpret it.

On a related topic, if someone is Dazed, can you disarm or grab a weapon out of their hand w/o them doing anything about it? Would they get an opposed roll since they too can not take any actions?

 

[Ruvion]

Cloak of Resistance helps a character to "evade" (not the evasion ability) better hence the bonus to Reflex save. I do not think the Cloak of Resistance empowers a bound/unconscious/or otherwise helpless character to make a Reflex save (that would imply that the Cloak was self-aware or was empowered/programmed to aid its wearer when he's down in luck).

Originally posted by RigaMortus
Fire and flames are unpredictable, so the flares of a fireball may not necessarily fill up every inch of that 20' radius.

So, is a Reflex save relegated to a simple luck check?

IMC, I would adjudicate "no Reflex save period for the helpless". It sucks to be helpless...

 

[IceBear]

For stunned characters, I'd allow a Reflex save with the same penalties as on the AC. If they made the save, then maybe they stumbled out of the way just in time. I'd probably not allow Evasion to work though.

As for held or helpless, no, I wouldn't allow a Reflex save. They can't move at all and I believe you have to be able to move to make a Reflex save and dodge something.

IceBear

 

[Xahn'Tyr]

There is no question that a helpless person cannot make a Ref save. That is spelled out quite clearly in the rules (thanks Hyp). The only question is if a stunned person counts as helpless. They do not:

A stunned creature can't act and loses any Dexterity bonus to AC. Attackers gain +2 bonuses to attack it.

They are not helpless, they are not paralyzed, they are not unconsious. They are just stunned. They can't do anything constructive but they could still reflexively duck or cringe away from a rushing wall of flame (just flavor text mind you).

Perhaps the problem is that you are imagining a stunned person as standing rigid and unaware, rather than just dazed and off balance for a moment?


I think the house rule about taking away their Dex bonus on the save is a good idea though.

 

[hong]

PHB p110 : A helpless creature is treated as having a Dexterity of zero.

MM p10 : "Any creature that can move has at least 1 point of Dexterity. A creature with no Dexterity score can't move. The creature fails all Reflex saves and Dexterity checks."

Since when has having a Dex score of zero been the same as having no Dex score at all?

 

[IceBear]

I know there are MANY, MANY, MANY things that break logic and realism in 3E, but I can't see how someone who is paralyzed and has a 2 ton rock drop on their square from above could not take any damage from it by making their Reflex save to avoid it.

IceBear

 

[hong]

I know there are MANY, MANY, MANY things that break logic and realism in 3E, but I can't see how someone who is paralyzed and has a 2 ton rock drop on their square from above could not take any damage from it by making their Reflex save to avoid it.

By having the 2 ton rock make an attack roll to hit, instead of giving the victim a Ref save to avoid.

 

[IceBear]

Why would I change my mechanic just because the person is helpless. If I had a trap that said Reflex Save or be crushed under a 2 ton rock, and the evil priest held Lidda and then pushed her into the trap, I've now got to use an attack roll.

It clearly states that in MM that you must have at least a DEX of 1 to make Reflex saves, and when you are helpless you have a DEX of 0. Yes, I know that a DEX of 0 is not the same as having no DEX, but I see them as being effectively the same when it comes to Reflex saves.

IceBear