Reframing the 15 min day

[Spinachcat]

This "15 minute day" problem is a joke. If the casters burn through everything in one fight, so be it. Its time to use that staff.

If you flee the goblin lair after one fight, then you can bet the goblins will either give chase or completely reinforce. Action / Reaction is far more important to the story than any so-called balance.

I run OD&D and smart players find plenty of things for their casters to do when low on spells or out of spells. Nothing is going to help the dumb except constant refresh. Smart players who are low on resources THINK their way out of combats and find ways to dodge problems.

If you want a character who is all-go, all-the-time then play any non-caster. If you want a caster, welcome to resource management. It already sounds like 4e will be doing plenty to help the dumb and minimize resource management.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I'm not sure if you're missing my point or not. Some people were raising the issue that, so long as there are abilities that DON'T recharge, there's not a mechanical reason not to blow your load in one or two fights and then clock out for the day.

I'm suggesting a mechanical fix to that that I think works well in a game where there is a mix of rechargeable and per-day powers. There is an incentive to use all your "good" abilities and then quit counterbalanced by an incentive to keep on trucking and try to get the bonus award - sort of like how some video games give you bonus items or points for setting up improbably large combos (I'm looking at you, Disgaea.)

It seems imperfect, but it at least puts something on the other side of the scales.

I think I missed your point. Your point did address a game where per day and per encounter powers. In that case, your way might indeed work out fine. It doesn't work in 3E, but in 4E, it might. (The remaining question is if it's actually needed in 4E. But that's impossible to say until they have shown us a good set of per day and per encounter powers and their usability).

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

This "15 minute day" problem is a joke.

It's more hyperbole. (Since spellcasters are involved, the day must be at least 1 hour and 15 minutes, since they need to prepare their spells. )

If the casters burn through everything in one fight, so be it. Its time to use that staff.

If you flee the goblin lair after one fight, then you can bet the goblins will either give chase or completely reinforce. Action / Reaction is far more important to the story than any so-called balance.

I run OD&D and smart players find plenty of things for their casters to do when low on spells or out of spells. Nothing is going to help the dumb except constant refresh. Smart players who are low on resources THINK their way out of combats and find ways to dodge problems.

Smart players ensure that they are never in a situation where they get low resources. This might mean that they leave the dungeon after 15 minutes of combats and use their remaining resources to build a defensible position where they can rest.
And if they really can't do it, but are still out of resources, they probably die. There is no last ditch efforts you can take if your down to 8 hit points, facing monsters that deal 30 points of damage per round, and don't know if the rogue will actually find and disable all traps in areas where you could bypass the monsters.

I have heard this argument before. "If low on resources, a smart player will find a way to think himself out of a situation. He will reach in his self and find something he can use to get out of his situation". If you're out of resources, there is no way out. If its gas tank is empty, a car won't drive, regardless how good its driver is.
Such a think just doesn't exist. Either there is some mechanical resource you haven't spend and that can make you go (oh look, let's drink this potion of "Restful Nourishment", or let's spend a Second Wind to recover half my hit points, let's use this expensive Staff of Fireballs), or you're out. Finito. Over. Perdu. Bye bye. Rest now or fail. Or just fail. Resting optional. Not suitable for kids under age 3. Batteries not included.

If you want a character who is all-go, all-the-time then play any non-caster. If you want a caster, welcome to resource management. It already sounds like 4e will be doing plenty to help the dumb and minimize resource management.

Thanks for the dumbing down statement. That was really needed and is a great contribution to an otherwise healthly discussion. If I had a penny for every time this is brought up, I might have... Ah, well with the current $-€ exchange rate, it's note even worth trying to make up a reasonable sounding number...

 

[Doug McCrae]

I think 4e's '80% capability' will go some of, but not all, the way towards removing the 15 min day. A major issue which is still to be revealed is if that 80% refers only to powers. How restorable will hit points be? A lot of the time a party on 80% power will elect to continue I think. But not if they're only on 50% hit points.

In some ways 4e will have a lot more resource management than previous editions -
1) There is now per encounter resource management, not just per day.
2) All classes will have per day resources, not just the casters.
3) Action points in core rules.

 

[Doug McCrae]

One suggestion: Remove bonus spell slots. Instead, a spellcaster can prepare spells worth a number of spell levels equal to his Spellcasting Ability Modifier as a "per encounter" spell.

Have you seen the Reserve feats in Complete Mage? They do much the same thing as you are suggesting but are a bit less powerful.

 

[JediSoth]

I didn't encounter this 15-minute day thing until I played in a game that was doing "City of the Spider Queen" where we had to expend all of our resources in one combat, then rested, then went to the next area only to do the same thing all over again.

It's the constant mega-battles one right after another that does it. In the games I would run, I would never structure them like that. I'd build to massage combats throughout the session. Perhaps a small, quick combat near the beginning, some investigation, some exploration, another small fight, some more investigation or traveling all leading up to the climatic encounter at the end of the session.

Sometimes the PCs would have to rest several times during the session, but that was because game time dictated that they had to: a full day had passed while they did whatever.

JediSoth

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Have you seen the Reerve feats in Complete Mage? They do much the same thing as you are suggesting but are a bit less powerful.

Yes, I did. I really have to try them out some time. (Unfortunately, at the moment I'm not playing a spellcaster in any of our campaigns). But existing rules will never stop me from making up my own!

 

[mach1.9pants]

It's more hyperbole. (Since spellcasters are involved, the day must be at least 1 hour and 15 minutes, since they need to prepare their spells. )

I always assumed that '15 minute work day' applied more to 15 mins of play time than 15 mins for the PCs. Ie It only takes 15 secs for the players to say they have got up and prepared then after 15 minutes of play (obviously a bit of an exaggeration) they have used their resources -(especially lower level casters, and we didn't play above 8-10th level until we got Bo9S 'cos non spell casters suck after that)- and want to rest.

And yes as DM I can give them extra random encounters, bad guys that give chase when they retreat, time limits etc so they have to push forward. However I don't want to have to put these limitations on the PCs all the time. They should be able to tactically retreat and have the chance to rest sometimes. Having a mix of per encounter and per day abilities means I can still push them when I want with time limits et al but most of the time they will push themselves.

But I also like per day=per session powers and will try that after the 4E RAW.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I don't know who these DMs are who let the characters tuck in and sleep after 15 minutes, and I don't know who these players are who spend their entire daily repertoire in 15 minutes.

Hi!

I'm FreeTheSlaves and I'm said dm and player.

We used to do the '15 minute day' because it was a pretty smart way to concentrate power in a short period to more safely overcome the main daily obstacle. However, that and it's counters got pretty repetitive, so we looked for a way out. Ruleswise we never found good cause, so we decided on a gentleman's agreement not to do so anymore.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I don't know who these DMs are who let the characters tuck in and sleep after 15 minutes, and I don't know who these players are who spend their entire daily repertoire in 15 minutes.

Me. Last session the first encounter killed the cohort (a cleric) and reduced most of the rest of the party to -ves. We don't use CLW wands and decided to rest for several days before continuing into the dungeon.

As a DM several times I've allowed PCs to have a nice rest because it makes sense. I often use tombs and similar sorts of dungeons where the monsters don't really react. Or the PCs cast teleport and go back to town, 500 miles away. Or the PCs are ambushed by assassins. Do I really have to have them ambushed four times in a day? It strains credulity.