D&D General Refresher Course D&D Edition Numbers. AKA Modern D&D Is a Self Inflicted Problem.

[Zardnaar]

A long time ago I read a thing about what's better? +1 to hit or +1 damage. Very simple concept. Correct answer varies by edition. I've said fireball is a C tier spell and gotten pushback. Topic of this thread is similar to that concept. I love how ENworld loves to nitpick and declear that youre wrong and im right. Hell its practically encouraged. This is more conceptual no right or wrong answer its essentially what you prefer.

Consider what's better.

1d6 vs 30 hp
3d6 vs 90 hp

What's better? 3d6 is better its a large number right? That's essentially my argument why 5E fireball is a C tier spell. You are not required to agree with me.

In Mearls thread about 5MWD ive been saying its mitigated to a large extent in older D&D due to very different design paradigms. Its not better as OSR playstyle is subjective and after running a 1E adventures recently it had its own issues (D&D the Accounting).

Consider. General guideline only but rereading my collection

1E/Basic line.

1d8 vs 25 hp

2E
1d8 vs 30 hp
Regain 1-3 hp overnight+ magic.

3.0 1d8+4 vs 45 hp

3.5 1d8+ 4 vs 60 hp

Regain 1 hp/level + magic

4E 1d8+4 vs 120 hp

5E 1d8+4, 1d8+4 vs 120 hp

Regain all hp overnight (and all magic). 4E and 5E also have healing surges and hit dice. Less reliance on magical healing.

4E and 5E fairly similar HP the amount of damage you inflict I a big difference. This means fast combat vs slower paced. Put thread PHB's side by side 4E essentially stretched levels 3-10 or so over 30 levels.

Being ENword start nitpicking away at my numbers. They dont matter that much but we have gone from low damage low hp low healing to high damage. High hit points, high healing with the ones in the middle being somewhere in the middle.

Removal of all the badwrongfun stuff from older edition in effect has left hp attrition as the primary challenge to over come.

Wands of cure light wounds, healing surges, hit dice are all solutions to no one want to be a healer. But they create new problems. Pick your favorite poison.

Designers have responded to the playerbase positive or negative since 2E if not earlier. Gygax could be a bit more my way or the high way but he could be convinced and wasn't the only one designing stuff espicially Basic line.

1d6 vs 30 hp
3d6 vs 90 hp

See my point yet? Eat lots of suger put on weight. Drink lots of booze get a hang over.

 

[TiQuinn]

 

[haakon1]

I don’t understand the topic (or question) either, but if the premise is 5e is “meh” in some ways compared to many other versions of D&D that are in some ways better, I probably agree.

 

[Zardnaar]

I don’t understand the topic (or question) either, but if the premise is 5e is “meh” in some ways compared to many other versions of D&D that are in some ways better, I probably agree.

That's every edition. They all do something better than another edition.

Just depends if you like that something or not.

 

[payn]

So, we start talking about +x to hit, but then quickly forget it, so that we can make some point about HP numbers and rest recovery not being the same in all editions?

This couldn't be posted in Mike's 7LBWD thread because...?

 

[TerraDave]

Ok let’s try to figure this out: the point may be that 5e damage and hp inflation are natural outcomes of core assumptions and constraints. Yes, this true.

Bounded accuracy forces most differentiation onto hp and damage. The desire to avoid 1.5 a round/ittarative attack progression and the natural jump with 3rd level spells led fighters to get two attacks a round at level 5, which means a steep linear damage curve. (The starting point is also high thanks to the long standing ability modifiers). Lots of healing, in part to also keep things simple, also means monsters have to also do massive and increasing damage—or you need a bunch of encounters every game day.

This may be the point.

 

[Zardnaar]

Ok let’s try to figure this out: the point may be that 5e damage and hp inflation are natural outcomes of core assumptions and constraints. Yes, this true.

Bounded accuracy forces most differentiation onto hp and damage. The desire to avoid 1.5 a round/ittarative attack progression and the natural jump with 3rd level spells led fighters to get two attacks a round at level 5, which means a steep linear damage curve. (The starting point is also high thanks to the long standing ability modifiers). Lots of healing, in part to also keep things simple, also means monsters have to also do massive and increasing damage—or you need a bunch of encounters every game day.

This may be the point.

Yup. Modern design has created modern problems.

Thus is not a get off the grass everything since AD&D sucks. Go play those editions they have their own problems.

People have gotten used to modern design. In their head they'll blame something else. But what they like may actually be causing the problem they're railing against.

4E vs 5E. Key difference is damage levels. How things are expressed are different key concepts the same.

Casuals may or may not care as well. Hell alot here cant even comprehend they even exist.

 

[TiQuinn]

But what they like may actually be causing the problem they're railing against.

What problem?

You’re kind of waving your hands in the air and saying “all of this” but different people have different problems.

 

[Stalker0]

See my point yet? Eat lots of suger put on weight. Drink lots of booze get a hang over.

Funny enough....I don't see your point.

I think this was in response to some other critiques in another thread, but removing the answer from that thread removes all the nuance and context, and so we are left with a series of just statements...but I don't know what conclusion the statements even want us to come to.

 

[Seramus]

Interesting abilities are more valuable to me than +1 to Hit or Damage, like adamantine weapons that are great at going through objects, or the mythical sword Fragarach that can force someone to tell you the truth.