Refreshing Surges Con Mod per day instead of all

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I wouldn't use Con basically for all the reasons mentioned, plus:
It is independent on how many surges you had originally, and this is also greatly affected by your role. In the end, Defenders will lose their (necessary) healing surge advantage.

It would be better to base it on the actual number of surges they have. Maybe 1/2, 1/3 or 1/4 (rounding as you prefer, mimimum 1 surge).

One idea I had at the start of 4E was to have something like a "Recharge" roll - roll 1d6 for every surge you normally have after an extended rest.
Reaching or exceeding an arbitrary number as dependent on your "grittiness" level (e.g. on a 2-6, or 5-6, or 6 only), you recharge one surge. A drawback is the amount of rolling required, but then, it is still a simple process. You could even add a degrading aspect to it - you only get recharge rolls for surges you had since your last extended rest, so it is bound to get worse each day. (In that case, a low Recharge number seems most appropriate.)
I would probably suggest something like Recharge 5-6 if you roll for all surges and 3-6 if you roll for surges you have recharged since you're last extended rest. 5-6 means on average you recover 1/3 of your surges, 4-6 you recover about 1/2, meaning 1/4 ofter 2 rests, and 1/8th after 3 rests.

Or you could just use a fixed number based on role itself.
Controller get 2 surges back, Leaders and Strikers 3, Defenders 4. Doesn't account for the differences in healing surge numbers between classes of the same role that we see in practice, though, but it gets closer than using Con. If you still want Con to figure it, you could add a Constitution or Endurance Check to recover 1-3 additional surges. (maybe based on class role).

 

[Blackbrrd]

What about getting:
2 surges if you get get 4hp pr level
3 surges if you get get 5hp pr level
4 surges if you get get 6hp pr level
5 surges if you get get 7hp pr level

+2 surges for resting indoors
+1 surge if you have the durable feat

I am NOT a fan of this getting tied to the con score.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Another, simpler way, would be to just give them back their surges after 2 or 3 Long Rests.

Perhaps 2 comfortable Long Rests count as one Long Rest.
3 outdoor, but prepared, Long rests count as one Long Rest.
4 crappy outdoor rests count as one Long Rest.

Anyway, the amount of combats the party will be able to take on will still be dependant con the amount of Long Rests it can take/Surges that they can get back.

Good idea!

I was thinking for an outdoor adventure, gritty game, that perhaps outdoor camping only returns half the normal surges, but the group can complete a skill challenge to prepare the campsite and recover 3/4 surges.
Each additional day of outdoor camping could have a higher DC, due to lack of supplies, etc...
Of course, your campsites won't stay level equivilent challenges for long, unless you happen to try to camp in the outer planes or something.

 

[Kzach]

My friend is starting a new game and he is trying out a new rule to make 4e combat grittier.

Y'know, I used to be a DM like this.

That was because I spent 99% of my time behind the DM screen.

Ever since 4e came out, I've reversed that and been spending more time as a player. It made me realise something about all those 'gritty' rules I came up with.

They're boring.

There's a lot to be said for the philosophy, "What does this add to the game experience? Does this make the game more fun?" This kind of thing makes the game unfun.

Seriously, who wants to be trawling about in a cave, barely able to take on a rat for fear of never getting your hit points back? Who is that fun for? Will the players really enjoy sitting around in a muddy cave for a month as their low-Con buddies die and they can't adventure because they can't take on a housecat until they get their surges back?

 

[sfedi]

Y'know, I used to be a DM like this.

That was because I spent 99% of my time behind the DM screen.

Ever since 4e came out, I've reversed that and been spending more time as a player. It made me realise something about all those 'gritty' rules I came up with.

They're boring.

I had a similar experience.

I've tried those kind of rules without success. But I think that they could work if made right.

Anyway, you are right about switching to the player's side before creating houserules.
Sometimes we, as DMs, are too caught up on our role and don't fully grasp the consequences of some rulings and adjudications we make up.

There's a lot to be said for the philosophy, "What does this add to the game experience? Does this make the game more fun?" This kind of thing makes the game unfun.

Seriously, who wants to be trawling about in a cave, barely able to take on a rat for fear of never getting your hit points back? Who is that fun for? Will the players really enjoy sitting around in a muddy cave for a month as their low-Con buddies die and they can't adventure because they can't take on a housecat until they get their surges back?

There's a tendency to only look at one side of the coin.

When we talk about, for example, the gritty feel, we focus only con the "don't have enough resources" part of it.
But not on the "the heroes has plenty of inner resources".

This mistake is clear in this thread, we are thinking about how to constraint the healing surges of PCs, but not on rules on how to keep them adventuring, pushing themselves combat after combat. A staple on S&S.

 

[Stalker0]

Another, simpler way, would be to just give them back their surges after 2 or 3 Long Rests.

Perhaps 2 comfortable Long Rests count as one Long Rest.
3 outdoor, but prepared, Long rests count as one Long Rest.
4 crappy outdoor rests count as one Long Rest.

Anyway, the amount of combats the party will be able to take on will still be dependant con the amount of Long Rests it can take/Surges that they can get back.

I think this is actually more complicated the other options I've seen. I'm much more in favor in a static number of surges recovered per rest...dependent on role if need be.

While my friend is unlikely to change his house rule as we've already started the game, I think there are a lot of good ideas here. I will still disagree with many people though that the defenders are the ones that are hurt the most by this rule. In my experience with a party from 7-16th level...its not the defender who gets close to running out of surges, its the strikers.

Even so, tying surge recovery by class seems pretty straightforward, and takes out a lot of the concerns people here have stated. Also adding in the con mod to inn rest can allow the con mod to stay play a factor...but a far smaller one for typical adventuring groups.



Here's what I'm thinking overall:

1) All classes recover 2 surges per extended rest (change this number to the grittiness of your game, this closely approximates what my group has now).
2) Defenders receive +1 surge recovered.
3) Resting in an inn recovers additional surges equal to your con mod (minimum +0).
4) The durable feat also adds +1 surge recovered (so 2 healing surges, +1 surge recovery....starts making that feat pretty attractive).

Alternative Option: Defenders lose +2 surges and +1 surge recovered...gain the durable feat for free. This gives them the same power, but they can't push it even farther with feats if that is to your liking.

 

[Stalker0]

There's a tendency to only look at one side of the coin.

This mistake is clear in this thread, we are thinking about how to constraint the healing surges of PCs, but not on rules on how to keep them adventuring, pushing themselves combat after combat. A staple on S&S.

My DM has been playing 4e for quite a while, so he's knows what the players feel.

I think the grittiness is to increase the feeling of danger in 4e combat, which in turn increases the excitement. And it gives surges further meaning...I agree with him that I have rarely seen any class run out of surges with the normal rules, the party is more likely to run out of dailies and want to rest anyway.


And as for a way to keep player's adventuring....I just happen to be cooking something up to address that...it should be on the forums pretty soon

 

[sfedi]

I think the grittiness is to increase the feeling of danger in 4e combat, which in turn increases the excitement.

I thought grittiness was to increase the struggle sense.

I would associate danger more to other feelings, like certain combats, finales, or horror and survival.

And it gives surges further meaning...I agree with him that I have rarely seen any class run out of surges with the normal rules, the party is more likely to run out of dailies and want to rest anyway.

Yes, that's my experience too.

And as for a way to keep player's adventuring....I just happen to be cooking something up to address that...it should be on the forums pretty soon

Why does it have to be a mechanical way to push the characters?
Why not story elements?

Hmmm, but now that I think of it, we are lacking rules to tailor the core assumption of "4-5 combats before a long rest".
We MUST have rules for changing that.

It's the difference between the DM controlling the pacing or the rules dicating it.

Topic for another thread I guess.

 

[Nifft]

I don't particularly have a problem with the normal 4e long/short rest mechanic, but ...

Why does it have to be a mechanical way to push the characters?
Why not story elements?

Why not both?

They're both tools to help set the tone. Some people respond better to flavor text; some people respond better to mechanics. If one has both kinds in one's group, one might need to use both kinds of tone-modulation to get everyone on the same page.

Cheers, -- N

 

[the Jester]

Reduncing the rate of surge recovery would, to me, serve a different purpose than increasing "grittiness"- it would help solve the "1st to 30th level in a month" problem. Which, imho, is a huge potential issue. I really believe that a 30th level character ought to have been adventuring for (game) years, not months.

YMMV, of course.